911 thoughts and the battle for our minds.

[lumper]

Isn’t funny how the disinfo and misinfo campaigns have moved into high gear?

Seems almost to easy to find the information we can all stumble over, leaked?

Notice the division even between members of the same movements?

911 was a key moment in geopolitics, it isn’t the end all be all item though.

it seems so many are stumbling over each other defending and debunking claims, listen, its time to look beyond it.

I fully support the research that has gone into it and it is quite obvious that 911 was partly an inside job and definitely a cover up, but really even if we get a day in court, even if we get satisfaction in some way by bringing forward those responsible and awareness to the American people what then?

Isn’t the real issue and main problem central banking in America, and geopolitics concerning the controlling of natural resources?
911 is to distract you from it all and what a distraction it is.

The deals with Iran and China, and Russia, the OPEC nations moving away from the dollar in an attempt to cripple the US economy as well as its military ability, the idea of what may come from an Iran invasion/occupation is where we are at.

Look at each nation that has announced either nationalizing their oil or moving to the Euro for the sale of oil and what U.S. intervention follows.
You must be able to see that even if you bring to light everything else, if you leave the current monetary system in place nothing will change.
Iran in 53 nationalized their oil, we covertly overthrew their government and installed the Shau, then when the people overthrew him they again moved against us and nationalized their oil.
We always go after nations that want to control their own resources.

The foreign private banking houses that control and profit from the Fed reserve and control the issuance of currency in the United States is the real crime and problem, and as long as we go back to 911, Iran, the CIA, etc  we aren’t touching on the real problem.
Monetary reform and changing back to the constitutional laws regarding the issuance of money would bring revolutionary change.

It is easy to get caught up in the middle of these issues, there are so many, and they are by design so we are divided over them and everything else, race, religion, sex, age, politics, etc... Clearly if we cant come together there is no threat to revealing the very real issues that mask everything else.

Look into it yourself if you doubt this, there is no conspiracy about it, look at the pre 1900 political argument’s many are wrapped around a central banking system in America, the banks ability to create depressions and recessions and war, to shape public opinion through wages and interest rates and present solutions that selfish hungry Americans want to hear.

We ignored them, our grandfathers slept through the complete takeover of Americans money and now we are paying for it.

In case you haven’t learned or aren’t ready to research yourself for some reason, the Federal Reserve is neither federal or has it any reserves.
It stands as a middle man between congress and the treasury although the constitution gives the power to issue currency exclusively to congress not private bankers, and not for profit.

This was a very hot debate in our history many times, Andrew Jackson was the last president to shut down the Banking cartel and it lasted 77 years before they consolidated money and strained the U.S. economy bringing it to its knees begging for reform, then they introduce the illegal federal reserve act of 1913 and the rest is essentially history.

We are supposed to be on a gold standard; Kennedy wanted a silver standard, either way we need 100% reserve banking without a middle man profiting from the issuance of all money.

So did the most sophisticated military in the world pull off 911 but not cover all the bases allowing there to be controversy?

How many years has it been since JFK was assassinated and although we know there were multiple shooters and a conspiracy we can’t get any justice?

911 as important as it is, will keep you from looking further as it has for so many young people getting involved now.
The amount of information regarding the many aspects of it are mountainous.

Look at a few things and then ahead.

Look at brazinski's "The grand Chess game", or the  project for a new American century's "strengthening Americas defenses",  look at China and its possible moves to ensure a fiercely developing overpopulated nation can sustain energy resources, the deals made recently with Iran, the thought of Russia, and Japan from China's perspective.

If other opec nations move away from the US dollar the US economy will suffer massively.
This is a known fact, learn about fractional reserve banking and how it has effected America and you will understand.

Fractional reserve banking laws have bankrupted the Nation; we are the most indebt nation in world history.
Without military might to secure resources and pressure the maintenance of the US dollar for the oil standard we will suffer irreversible losses.
The only thing that keeps any value in the Us dollar is that OPEC nations have historically made it so the US dollar is the only currency they would accept when selling oil, whether Germany wanted to buy oil, or France, or china, all had to pay opec nations for oil with Dollars, so you see when they announce they will now switch to the Euro as it is stringer than the dollar economist realize that spells the end of the American empire, they advise Washington via think tanks and strategies are formed and implemented to try not to panic the nation, but find a way to get support for military occupations whenever these changes that threaten our economy occur.

All China has to do is side or ally with Russia, Iran, North Korea, and Venezuela and all move to the more lucrative Euro and we will be economically crippled, your money would be better used to wipe your nose or roll cigarettes as it will have zero value.
So as these nations attempt this strategy which is under way as I write this, and very profitable to them, not only monetarily, but geopolitically as they can end the United States imperialistic control over their regions of the globe.
Just check your papers, and foreign press releases, the US is forced to use their only ace, military might to try and control these changes either through occupations, false flag operations, or propaganda against other nations leaders.

so as important as 911 is, will it likely have any effect on the war on terror?
no probably not, don’t let it go, just learn to move past the shock and awe of it all and bring more awareness to the reality of our plight.

Foreign banking houses currently and nearly always have undermined american liberty to install a system that allows them to control our economy, this is easily shown and proven and there is a great monetary reform act out there just waiting for your signature and activism.

Why isn’t banking and central banking EVER discussed on political talk shows, in the news, or even on the net?

Do some research and educate others and bring people together as opposed to all the infighting, the 911 puzzle will wrap your mind in a pretzel and in the end we will still have a fed reserve, a two party system, and a constitution and bill of rights that are considered, "OUTDATED DOCUMENTS" as some have said.
4 years ago, there were maybe 20 sites dedicated to 911 and its research, now there are over 100 and growing every moment.

Back then it seemed a noble and just cause to locate all the quite obviously leaked "leads" and find the inconsistency of it all, after the commission adjourned it was clear how this would play out, time to look forward at the real agenda, the real possibilities.

Iran I think is way to radical of a move for us right now, more likely we will work with Israel and take care of local possible allies to Iran, destabilize Russia, and move to try and undermine China, which the propaganda machine has already begun.

If we know that based on the oil companies own estimates whether there lying or not that we are looking at Europe, China, Russia and the US all racing for the oil, we can begin to nearly predict the future here in America.

Let’s face it there are only 3 or 4 possible outcomes here.

None are good; it is also plausible so you understand that in time this may be used as a way to tell
America, "look we had to cover up and lie about certain things, we were looking at a very serious threat to life in America and in the name of national security we had little choice."

But the alternative is instead of pursuing these military agendas to take what we need, we could shift to the constitution, take back the issuance of money first and foremost so the inevitable threat of national bankruptcy and a severe interruption to every Americans life is no longer in jeopardy, then go backwards and remove the either never ratified or clearly constitutionally illegal executive orders that have shredded our rights in the name of terrorism, do away with the complicity that exists in Washington and the two party system, make everlasting changes to how corporations may operate concerning US foreign policy and ties to any political affiliation.

All these things protected us in the 1800's which is why there was such a fierce battle for control early on, President Wilson later acknowledged that he ruined his country and we have for some reason allowed this cartel of bankers to control first the press, then the media, then the education, and finally Washington via wall street.

Stop fighting about what temperature steel melts at, and all the rest, its all quite obvious, we all need to come together and bring forth changes that can and will benefit everyone.

If we don’t, the other options aren’t very pretty.
If Iran becomes a real target, nukes may be used, with China and Russian allied against us, or maybe as I mentioned maybe the opec nations all at once move from the dollar making it impossible for us to move militarily against them all and crippling the US economy, then of course our multi trillion dollar military  is crippled with no funds.

If the rest of the world has had enough of US aggression we could see some very serious changes here in America.

Who knows how it will all play out, but if we don’t address this we will never have a chance.
I have hosted a 911 research site since early 2003, I made many discoveries looking over photos and videos, traveling around the country, so make no mistake not one single day ever goes by that I don’t think about those people in New York, all of them, rescue workers, first responders, building occupants, etc...
I haven’t slept a good nights sleep in years.

I will never not think about them, but I will also not let that psyop completely blind me from the larger picture.
What good is a criminal investigation? a senate commitee hearing, another warren commission?
What will it achieve?

I am very proud of all those who have spoken out, who have taken the time to research and sacrifice their own time and regular day to day lives in the true spirit of compassion and truth, but we are being misled from within now, lets move to other things while this remains still on the table, it is very important, but as we move towards Iran and Peak oil if you believe in that sort of thing we must realize 911 was nothing compared to what is coming.

I found this site and forum, after finding the "bust bush" hip hop song on a video on youtube.

I think it is inspiring and powerful and it led me to come here and see what the mindsets of these boards are.

No time to hate each other, we must agree to disagree on the small stuff and get together on the real issues.

Stop the ignorance of division and don’t let idiots advocate division, or hatred among us, rise above it and realize it is by design to keep us down, we have to rise together, last word on this from me, look at what the people in Spain did after the Madrid bombings, its all about coming together.

Peace, and keep up the good fight, we live in a very strange point in history and what we do will shape our future and history is written by the winners, lets not loose this one.

Lump

[Terrorize This]

Well said

[RMX]

true that

[lumper]

a little saddened by the lack of response.

Just signed the petition for 911 truth to get more information released and thought I would check back to see if there was a consensus regarding my post.

Thanks "Terroize this" and "rmx" for reading it.

Lump

[AvA_Immortal]

I read it, very well written. There is another guy who is trying to say the same thing which you are.
You should check out some of his stuff, his name is mike rupert.(just google for it, there are several videos)
You say that you came accross this site by accident? Its a site for a very intelligent and gifted rapper named
Immortal Technique. He raps about the REAL stories which are affecting our world, not what his handlers
tell him to,(he has none) or what they tell you on the news. I look up to him in every way cause he tells it REAL,
and his music is fucking amazing.
I used to be one of the brainwashed slaves who thought bin laden did it until recently.
When I realized what really had happened on 911, I cried and cried and cried,
and every time I think about what is happining, I am filled with sorrow.
I try and keep up with it all but what can I, one man do?


NWO is real, and the year is not 2007 but really 1984!

[murdaLicious]

NWO is real, and the year is not 2007 but really 1984!

You clearly haven't read 1984.  If it were 1984 you wouldn't even be allowed to think that thought, let alone go on the internet and look like a jackass by typing it.  People need to stop bandying about claims of 1984age.  Shit is not even close to that bad.  Shit, it's not even far away from that bad, it's beyong far away.

[lumper]

well I appreciate your words.
I found immortal tech on a you tube video, "bust bush"
I had already been writing and researching for 4 years when I did and I was very excited to find this site.
I am aware after researching a little that his songs are well written and in the vein of the truth, that is what I am about.

Mike Ruppert was mostly a peak oil spokesman, he used to be an LA detective and exposed the CIA drug running publicly costing the then head of the cia a post he had been in line for.

Mike recently when through a series of tragic and suspicious events.
I think Proffesor Stephen E Jones, and many other scientist and experts from intellctual America speaking out with critical thought and debate offer a lot more in truth than most others.

The point is awareness to the real issues, you can clearly follow the banking cartels to America, to the development of the Federal Reserve and its implementation, and to the US policies that have all spawned from it and the CIA.

The history is all there well documented and easily shown, but there is a total media and political blackout of any reform to the issuance of Americas money.
To understand the banking watch a documentory called the money masters, its very thorough and will explain alot about geopolitics when you understand how fractional reserves have bankrupted a nation and why.

These things arent conspiracy theories that require any faith, or secret society, there simply European banking houses mainly from the Rothschild Family and the history of banking, fractional reserve laws, and their implementation in America.

It is dangerous to think everything is a conspiracy.
Twice as dangerous to think nothing is.

A few quotes:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."  –  Teddy Roosevelt

 "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."  –  Teddy Roosevelt

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  –  Mark Twain

Endless money forms the sinews of war.
Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC), Philippics
   
All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.
Galileo Galilei (1564 - 1642)

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crises. The great point is to bring them the real facts.
Abraham Lincoln
 
The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just.
Abraham Lincoln

Peace,
Lumper

[Godfather of Soul]

Ruppert has admitted that he had a "nervous breakdown" in the past.  Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, but it may explain some of his rather fanciful theories in books like Crossing the Rubicon...which had a great deal of unsourced information that Ruppert claimed put him deep in some kind of conspriacy. 

Stephen Jones does work, or did work, on cold fusion.  That alone shows how credible his credentials are.  That is like alchemy. Also, instead of having his scientific theories relating to 9/11 peer reviewed by established journals of structural engineering or physics journals, he created his own peer-review group called the Journal of 9/11 Studies. 

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html

Dude is sketchy.  If things were that ironclad he would have submitted his stuff to a peer review. 

As for banking...I agree somewhat, but not that they control things in the ways that you imply.  They have a level of control, but not absolute. 

[AvA_Immortal]

to the guy who criticized me for not reading 1984, you are an idiot. here, read the book for yourself and see. http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/
That said, its just a book, I am not saying i live in the damn book, I was merely drawing a dark parrody between our world and his.
as for the rest of you, dont spend too much time trying to break down whos is and who isnt the REAL authourity on the subject of world domination, think for yourselves, people such as mike and his rubicon book, and also jones too, may not always have reliable "sources" as you call it, but they all have one thing in common: They are trying to WARN you about important things that are going on right now which may or may not affect the future of mankind as we know it.
As with everything take it with a grain of salt. However, I have an easier time believing someone such as eric hufschmid or even moore than I do george bush and his buddies down in bohemian grove.   
Think for yourself, and in the words of immortal technique himself "turn off the news, and read. Read..."

[murdaLicious]

to the guy who criticized me for not reading 1984, you are an idiot. here, read the book for yourself and see. http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/
That said, its just a book, I am not saying i live in the damn book, I was merely drawing a dark parrody between our world and his.

Yeah, I've actually read the book several times.  And I can tell you again, SHIT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THAT BAD.  People are not 'vaporized' by the Thought Police, or tortured in the catacombs of Miniplenty.  Again, the fact that you can draw this 'dark parody' to our current situation is proof that that 'dark parody' is COMPLETELY baseless.  So how about you defend your statement instead of saying, "I didn't really mean what I said."

[lumper]

I can agree with many of your points, although banking my friend is clear cut, and has total control, this is self evident and I assure you a little research will show this.

If you understand fracional reserves and how they affect inflation vs a 100% reserve system as assured by the constitution and congress to coin our own money at no cost to the people, actualy you can youtube some Ron Paul on this in Congress, he has a lot of good info to.

"The money masters" is a good documentory that will answer most questions about the privately owned, for profit fedreal reserve system wich has questionable reserves and is not a federal institution.

Its odd that most cia directors come from boards of directors of various financial institutions.

That covert means have otherthrown leaders in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, etc.. tried in Venezuala, cuba, Haiti, whenever US policy is being thwarted from a nation even when they have a democraticaly elected leader with the support of his peoples majority, the US still sends the boys in and regime change is unavoidable, then whatever policy might have been just changed, land reform for the people in guatemala, or nationalizing oil fields and dropping the dollar for oil standard as in Iraq in 2003 or Iran who announced this move this year we inevitably find a way to change it back.

Stephen E jones cant get peer reviews any other way since no one wants to tow that line, he also was the one who debunked all the claims of cold fusion to that point, not tried to proove them.
Who would risk their mortgages, jobs, families and get behind the truth?

how can you get reviews from people and orginazations that are being heavily influenced to support other theories, even Jones has posted emails on hiot site he recieved from somone claiming to have contacts within homeland security and assured Dr Jones of new funding opportunities if he would shift his research.
he was also asked not to speak of thermite as it would supposedly give terrorist ideas, even though you can buy thermite on ebay or make it.

All I know is that free falling buildings require controlled demolition, steel and concrete offer resistance, but not in NY on 911, the building 3 I believe was closer to the north tower, was severely damaged by debris, burned for an extended period of time, still did not collapse, had to be demolished later.

Jones also offerd to debate any government department or agency or indivdual representing the official fema, 911 and nist reports.
NIST responded in writing saying no person from nist woud ever debate him, lol.
He isnt alone there are quite a few on staff in physics with the same findings.

The science behind melting points for steel and partialy evaporated steel are available, the use of thermite is strongly suggested, but thats not even the point, the fact that wtc 7 isnt even mentioned in the 911 report and nist 6 yrs later still hasnt concluded its report and wont release any findings is.
no plane hit it, yet it had molten metal in its basement for weeks after, fell symetricaly in 6.5 to 7 seconds from 47 stories all seem odd and worthy of a real investigation.

You would think they would at least consider then a reputable physicist of nearly 30 years and his findings and allow them to be considered and tested, thats all.
instead discrediting acts and media blitzs and name calling are all that happen no one offers critical thought or debate.

So far all the testing has shown they can not explain the events without controlled demolition and in their own reports claim that fire has a low probability of causing the collapse., thats fema.
but since controlled demolition is going to create a new list of questions noone wants to open that box.

The fact that the crimescene was disrupted and the steel removed before federal investigators could examine it or all the many other issues with the official investigation are what warrant a second look.

theres volumes of evidence to suggest foreknowledge, hindered investigations, bombs going off all over lower manhattan, basement explosives going off in near synch with the planes impacts, the video footage of firemen clearing the area saying they have identified secondary devices etc.. so much so it would take a long long time to go through it all.


I think people need to address the federal reserve, the economy and how opec and defense spending are all that keep it alive.
911 was a catalyst to spend and begin a never ending campaign agaisnt an invisible enemy while securing resources, maintainign the dollar for oil standard and continuing the fake economy.

without those two main ingredients it would sink like a stone, which is why when a nation moves away from the dollar to the euro for example troops soon land and regime change comes, then suddenly US policy goes back to what it was in the region, and so on.
I would love to be wrong, been looking for a long time, but there is no denying the history of frational reserve central banking and its effects, and how it came to be, and what it has done.

pnac wrote these plans down a long time ago and if you read them you can nearly predict what is coming.

project for a new american century, strengthening Americas defenses lays it all out, internet control, a new army branch called "space forces" a large enough millitary to fight on more than 2 fronts at a time, to premptively stop any nation from ever being able to challenge the US millitarily, all this was written, available to all who want to read it, in it they say, "The process of transformation is likely to be slow absent some catalyzing event like a new pearl harbor", 10 months later we have 911, and their plans are escalated.
the former head of the workd bank Paul wolfawitz was an author of this strategy, he then took his place in the Bush administration.
So did a lot of the Iran Contra boys.

Anyway, I am not selling anything, I encourage people to consider these things and look carefully themselves is all, nothing wrong with asking good questions and nothing wrong with being prepared.

if you do nothing else, if I am full of it, at least watch the money masters, ignoring this just doesnt make any sense, I often will research opposition to understand their take and claims and maybe even learn somthing, its all a quest, I have grandchildren, I owe it to them not to sleep through our time to make change and raise awareness.

My father fought in the South Pacific, my uncle in France via normandy, I come from a long line of patriotic Americans who swore an oathe to defend the United States constitution from enemies foriegn or domestic.

I believe in my country and stand behind the constitution, not the president when he doesnt deserve it or violates the the position he has and its power.

If we simply enact monetary reform, eliminate the for profit central banking system from issueing our currency, scale our millitary to a defensive millitary not a pre emptive offensive millitary life in America woudl be a lot different and certainly a lot better for those of us interested in liberty.

These are fundamental to the United States and its independance.

We all share the outcome, lets give it a good look rather than take anything for granted while we still can.

Lumper

[AvA_Immortal]

Thanks lumper, I enjoy reading your posts, you unlike some people here seem to have a clue about whats going on.
Let me assure you murdah, that I speak for nearly everyone on this board when I say that you seem to have lost
the original point of this thread and trying to make it into a flame war.
This is a board for discussion, not for a miserable little troll like you who has nothing better to do than lurk in the forums
waiting to put someone down.

[Godfather of Soul]

AvA

I agree with Murdah that our society is nothing nearly as extreme as that of 1984...why is Murdah's statement a flame?  He thinks you are being hyperbolic, but he is, trust me on this, by no means flaming you.

Lumper-

Banking cannot control all of the variables in an economy.  They try, but there are certain things they cannot control.  Also, short-term profit making may threaten their dominance, as is evidenced by the collapse of sub-prime loans in the US housing market.  Banks are losing billions of dollars on that, and it will have ripple effects throughout the economy.  If they so tightly controlled everything, they wouldn't allow themselves to get into situations like that.

In terms of fiat currency, it is a big problem.  However, I don't disagree with Keynesian economics per se, and if they need to print more money and people get fed as a result, I don't give a shit.  However, that isn't happening right now, quite the opposite. Do I think a small cabal of people should have as much economic power as the fed?  No, but I do not think they have the level of control that Money Masters and books like The Creature from Jekyl Island imply.  Go to informationclearinghouse.info and search some writings by a man named Mike Whitney.  He is no fan of the Fed, but his writings show that it/they do not have the level of control that many who believe in international banking conspiracies do.

Its odd that most cia directors come from boards of directors of various financial institutions.

I don't find it odd at all.  If you are in a high level position in government, the private sector wants to exploit your knowledge of government and to use your contacts to influence governmental policies.  It is one of the biggest problems in Washington today.  There is a revolving door between corporate America and government, one that has had significantly detrimental effects on global society.  That could be cured easily through legislative action, but easy is not always politically viable.

It is obvious that those who oppose the church of the free market are overthrown.  That has been the modus operandi for the UK and US and most of Europe for the last 200 years.  I am sure you know of Smedley Buttler (http://www.doublestandards.org/butler2.html).  He says it better than most.  We agree by and large, just not on the specifics.  I do not think there is a cabal of bankers calling the shots on foreign policy etc.  Financial interests are American interests, so the two often dovetail, however the government is more complicated than that and has too many variables for a small group of people to control.  The root problem of this is capitalism and its inherent contradictions.  You cannot have a discussion of the fed and overthrowing it without discussing the nature of capitalism and how to overthrow it.

Stephen E jones cant get peer reviews any other way since no one wants to tow that line, he also was the one who debunked all the claims of cold fusion to that point, not tried to proove them.
Who would risk their mortgages, jobs, families and get behind the truth?

how can you get reviews from people and orginazations that are being heavily influenced to support other theories, even Jones has posted emails on hiot site he recieved from somone claiming to have contacts within homeland security and assured Dr Jones of new funding opportunities if he would shift his research.
he was also asked not to speak of thermite as it would supposedly give terrorist ideas, even though you can buy thermite on ebay or make it.

Journals would welcome his work if it had merrit.  It doesn't, at least from a scientific standpoint.  If his theory was strong, it wouldn't be so easily dismissed.  There is a peer-reveiewed study on what made the buildings collapsed and it is in a journal of engineering.  I am sure they have looked at hypotheses similar to Jones'...NIST is, and they cannot find information that supports the controlled demo thesis.  If they did, don't you think they would be screaming about it?  It would mean instant fame and support and historical significane without prescedence.  Scientists love that, but they love EVIDENCE even more.  The mathematics and empirical data behind Jones' theories are not strong, and are highly speculative and have PRE-DETERMINED conclusions, all hallmarks of the things that are not looked kindly upon in the scientific community.

As for the anonymous emails...those are nearly meaningless.  I get anonymous emails everyday for pills that say that they will make my dick huge (or at least bigger than it's already enormous size  ).  As for the thermite charge...it's inconclusive at BEST.  Jones is not an explosives expert!  He is not even an engineer.  There is a near consensus among demo companies that this was NOT a controlled demo.  I suggest you buy Vol 12, no. 4 of skpetic magazine...it's quite enlightening.

All I know is that free falling buildings require controlled demolition, steel and concrete offer resistance, but not in NY on 911, the building 3 I believe was closer to the north tower, was severely damaged by debris, burned for an extended period of time, still did not collapse, had to be demolished later.

Building three was also not structurally compromised by having a plane flown into it.  All I know is that most engineers and physicists and most people who have done the math do not support the controlled demo theory!

Jones also offerd to debate any government department or agency or indivdual representing the official fema, 911 and nist reports.
NIST responded in writing saying no person from nist woud ever debate him, lol.
He isnt alone there are quite a few on staff in physics with the same findings.

When was the last time you ever saw a government official debate anyone?  It doesn't happen.  As for the others in physics who agree with him, let's see them and see their credentials.

The science behind melting points for steel and partialy evaporated steel are available, the use of thermite is strongly suggested, but thats not even the point, the fact that wtc 7 isnt even mentioned in the 911 report and nist 6 yrs later still hasnt concluded its report and wont release any findings is.
no plane hit it, yet it had molten metal in its basement for weeks after, fell symetricaly in 6.5 to 7 seconds from 47 stories all seem odd and worthy of a real investigation.

Again, I will reference the Skeptic Magazine article. Brent Blanchard, head of Protech Field Operations (most of this is already stuff that I wrote in a thread in the debate section...just look there):

Question: The collapse of the towers looked exactly like controlled demolitions.
Protech: No they did not.  The key to any demolition investigation is in finding out "where" the actual point at which the buliding failed.  All photographic evidence shows WTC 1 and 2 failed at the point of impact.  Actual implosion demolitions always start from the bottom floors.  Photo evidence shows the lower floors of WTC 1 and 2 were intact until destroyed from above.

Question: WTC7 was intentionally "pulled down" with explosives.  The building owner himself was quoted as saying he decided to "pull it."
Protech: Building owners do not have authority over emergency personnel at a disaster scene.  We have never heard "pull it" used to refer to an explosive demolition.  Because of the extensive fires, demolition explosive experts anticipated the collapse of WTC 7.  They also personally witnessed it from a few hundred feet away and no one heard detonations.

Blanchard is Senior Editor at http://www.implosionworld.com/  I trust his expertise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_implosion

http://www.digg.com/tech_news/A_History_of_Structural_Demolition_in_America

He literally wrote the book on controlled demos throughout history.

NIST is going to, according to its website, release its findings in early 2007.  I would, quite frankly, have them rather take their time then rush to conclusions, like  many on the other side do.  As for the molten metal in the basement, what eyewitness accounts can you provide to support that claim? 

You would think they would at least consider then a reputable physicist of nearly 30 years and his findings and allow them to be considered and tested, thats all.
instead discrediting acts and media blitzs and name calling are all that happen no one offers critical thought or debate.

30 years of experience in COLD FUSION among others.  He is not an expert in this realm.

So far all the testing has shown they can not explain the events without controlled demolition and in their own reports claim that fire has a low probability of causing the collapse., thats fema.
but since controlled demolition is going to create a new list of questions noone wants to open that box.

That's not true at all.  Those who believe in controlled demo will not accept anything other than verification of that hypothesis.  NIST is looking at controlled demo even though it is not supported, strongly, with evidence other than conjecture.

The fact that the crimescene was disrupted and the steel removed before federal investigators could examine it or all the many other issues with the official investigation are what warrant a second look.

Again, to quote protech:

Question: Ground Zero debris--particularly the large steel columns from towers 1 and 2--were quickly shipped overseas to prevent scrutiny.
Protech: Not according to those who handled the steel. The chain of procession is clearly documented, first at Ground Zero by Protech and later at the Fresh Kills site by Yannuzzi Demolition.  The time frame (months) before it was shipped to China was normal.

theres volumes of evidence to suggest foreknowledge, hindered investigations, bombs going off all over lower manhattan, basement explosives going off in near synch with the planes impacts, the video footage of firemen clearing the area saying they have identified secondary devices etc.. so much so it would take a long long time to go through it all.

Foreknowledge?  YES WE AGREE!  Finally.  I believe that there were people in the government that had a strong, though not precise, window when an attack might happen and they did nothing.  There is a great deal of evidence to support the assertion that Israel certainly was spying on the hijackers and mossad agents watched the planes hit.  So foreknwoledge is different.  Is it criminal?  Yes.  But it, IMHO, is more negligence then malevolence.  The Bushies can't orchestrate a war effectively, how could they possibly pull something like this off if they were involved?

Explosives in the basements?  Let's see that.  What I have read and seen, does not support that thesis whatsoever.  Especially the seismic data (which would have certainly shown explosions big enough to topple buildings).  Bombs going off all over lower Manhattan?  Where is this information?  Firemen, who are not explosives experts or bomb experts or anything other than firemen, are saying they found "secondary devices"...that's like me going to ground zero and saying that I found a bomb.  I wouldn't know what the fuck I was talking about if I said something like that...how the hell would a fireman know what a secondary device looks like?  What about the PRIMARY devices?  My god, this is getting out of hand now!

911 was a catalyst to spend and begin a never ending campaign agaisnt an invisible enemy while securing resources, maintainign the dollar for oil standard and continuing the fake economy.

 
Um...there was no real threat to any of that stuff before 9/11...also we were spending nearly 400 billion a year on the military BEFORE 9/11, with little opposition.  Invisible enemies?  We have had those for the vast majority of the last 100 years!  It is just an old hat with a new name.  They would have found some reason to spend all that money even if 9/11 hadn't happened.  There was no dramatic change in foreign policy, just a ramping up on the aggression meter.  That is easily supported by the historical record.

without those two main ingredients it would sink like a stone, which is why when a nation moves away from the dollar to the euro for example troops soon land and regime change comes, then suddenly US policy goes back to what it was in the region, and so on.
I would love to be wrong, been looking for a long time, but there is no denying the history of frational reserve central banking and its effects, and how it came to be, and what it has done.

No it wouldn't.  It wasn't sinking before 9/11.  It was stalling a bit, but by no means sinking.  Well, we aren't invading Venezuela anytime soon.  But hey, if there was no 9/11 I can promise you we would have probably attacked them to justify war spending.  If the fed is so powerful, why did they allow the Euro to come out in the first place?!

pnac wrote these plans down a long time ago and if you read them you can nearly predict what is coming.

Well, their plans are in tatters at their feet now.  Bush is a lameduck with under 30% approval.  His legislative agenda is dead, as is most of the neo-con agenda.  Most of America wants an end to the war NOW or soon...The middle east is worse than it was before, and it was BAAAAAAD before, mainly because of us and the Europeans.  Yeah, they got their military spending, for now, but it is by no means guaranteed when we withdraw (partially or totally) from Iraq.  PNAC is worthless now, they have ZERO political capital and their agenda is wildly unpopular.  Man, it sure looks like it is going according to plan. 

If we simply enact monetary reform, eliminate the for profit central banking system from issueing our currency, scale our millitary to a defensive millitary not a pre emptive offensive millitary life in America woudl be a lot different and certainly a lot better for those of us interested in liberty.

Well said...

We should scale our military to near zero.  Just imagine if we cut 90% of the military's budget.  We would have more money than god, we already do, and there would be no poverty in most of the world!  We could even cut taxes, but hell, I would rather just keep the taxes the same and shift the spending priorities.

Lumper, I like you.  I like that you put up dispassionate arguments unlike most of the people who support the inside job theory.  You're building connections to other things and advocating that people read both sides...I wish more people here acted like this.

[lumper]

Again I sincerely appreciate your input and respect.

I stand by my original and subsequent posts and as I have suggested looking very closely at the "central banking system"  that has the exclusive authority to issue our money, how "fractional reserves" have bankrupted a nation and how US policy is always geared at the preservation of the US dollar for oil standard.
The federal reserves ability to issue our currency at a cost to the American people is the root of the problem.
"The Money Masters" is a great start for anyone.


As far as cutting our military spending by 90% I never suggested that, the facts regarding our military spending are that we as a nation spend more annualy on defense and military than all the other countries in the world combined, the stated policy and stategy is to develope a large enough military to prevent any challenger from arising.
You can read this for yourself in the p.n.a.c. strategy for strengthening Americas defenses on their website.

If we abandon the premptive offensive stategy we can cut our military spending say in half, and still have the largest most highly advanced military in the world.

But again, thats only one part of the equation, the other as most economist will tell you a fractional reserve inflated economy can only be strung along for so long, it isnt a matter of whether or not it will crash. it is a matter of when.

OPEC keeps the dollar flowing daily in world markets do some quick math and see for yoruself what happens when you eliminate that daily flow.

I appreciate that you are passionate and ready to read in hopes of educating others.

Congressman Ron Paul is a 30 yr veteran an expert on this area and I strongly suggest thast everyone take the time to listen to what he has to say, follow his voting record and youtube him if need be to see and hear some of his speeches and drafts regarding the budget.
heres an exerpt from a recent article from Ron Paul,

Ron Paul
Tuesday April 3, 2007

"The fiscal year 2008 budget, passed in the House of Representative last week, is a monument to irresponsibility and profligacy. It shows that Congress remains oblivious to the economic troubles facing the nation, and that political expediency trumps all common sense in Washington. To the extent that proponents and supporters of these unsustainable budget increases continue to win reelection, it also shows that many Americans unfortunately continue to believe government can provide them with a free lunch.

To summarize, Congress proposes spending roughly $3 trillion in 2008. When I first came to Congress in 1976, the federal government spent only about $300 billion. So spending has increased tenfold in thirty years, and tripled just since 1990.

About one-third of this $3 trillion is so-called discretionary spending; the remaining two-thirds is deemed “mandatory” entitlement spending, which means mostly Social Security and Medicare. I’m sure many American voters would be shocked to know their elected representatives essentially have no say over two-thirds of the federal budget, but that is indeed the case. In fact the most disturbing problem with the budget is the utter lack of concern for the coming entitlement meltdown.

For those who thought a Democratic congress would end the war in Iraq, think again: their new budget proposes supplemental funds totaling about $150 billion in 2008 and $50 billion in 2009 for Iraq. This is in addition to the ordinary Department of Defense budget of more than $500 billion, which the Democrats propose increasing each year just like the Republicans.

The substitute Republican budget is not much better: while it does call for freezing some discretionary spending next year, it increases military spending to make up the difference. The bottom line is that both the Democratic and Republican budget proposals call for more total spending in 2008 than 2007.

My message to my colleagues is simple: If you claim to support smaller government, don’t introduce budgets that increase spending over the previous year. Can any fiscal conservative in Congress honestly believe that overall federal spending cannot be cut 25% ? We could cut spending by two-thirds and still have a federal government as large as it was in 1990. "




As far as 911 is concerned there is a  mountain of evidence that clearly warrants a real investigation.
wether you agree with various points or not is besides the point, until all of the questions are answered no one will know for sure.

All we know and I have shown on my website is that we were promised the full resources of the federal government to investigate, then all efforts were thwarted, funding was limited, 14 million total compared to the 50 to 100 million to investigate President Clinton and Monica Lewinski, documents werent declassified, security clearnaces were delayed, etc.. all well documented and easily shown, these facts alone added to the investigators conducting the investigations pleading for more assistance, more time, more money, less restrictions, etc.. again warrant a closer look.
I dont think anyone should be opposed to determining the facts, especialy if there is nothing to hide.

Now having moved well beyond all this I see the need to expand as I said in my original post to the other issues still effecting us and how we can best prepare for what is coming, preparedness will save lives, and educating ourselves is the key, I speak in the spirit of truth and helping others.

I am not iunterested in distracting anyone with theories, or debates the truth is out there, I only hope I can encourage others to look for it.

Peace
Lump

[Godfather of Soul]

There have been investigations...they have answered a great number of questions, not all, but many.  People may not be satisfied with the conclusions, but a report like the NIST report is fairly solid.  Is it flawless?  No...but it is enough to take away 90% of the possibility of a controlled demo.  We can go around and around about foreknowledge, which the administration admits that it had.

If anything I would push for investigating how and why intell was ignored, who ignored it (Condi would be a good place to start) and why.  The investigation was underfunded, or less funded than it should have been because the Bush admin had as much to lose by being exposed as incompetent as it did being actively involved in the attacks.  They were criminally negligent at the least, but they would never allow a real investigation into that, let alone any of the anomolies.  They should have all been incarcerated for, essentially, allowing to happen.  In Spain, the people voted out the warmongers.  In the US, where the PR machine is much more advanced, the exact opposite happened because of spin control and agenda setting.  They had an idea, hell the US was being attacked (at least its interests) all over the world by radical mujahideen.  They were aware of the threat but did not take it seriously.  That fits the modus operandi of these guys more than anything. Arrogant, wreckless and incompetent.  A dangerous combination to say the least.

[murdaLicious]

Let me assure you murdah, that I speak for nearly everyone on this board when I say that you seem to have lost
the original point of this thread and trying to make it into a flame war.
This is a board for discussion, not for a miserable little troll like you who has nothing better to do than lurk in the forums
waiting to put someone down.

Calling out someone for a terribly exaggerated claim = flame war?  I'm "lurking...waiting to put someone down"?  It's not possible that I am a reasonable, intelligent person who does not care for careless and cliche hyperbole?  And if we're going to judge me for "putting someone down," let us remember that you called me an idiot as well, the only difference being: it didn't hurt my feelings.  It concerns me that people cannot disagree without someone calling the other a "miserable little troll," instead of defending their points.  If you think that 2007 is 1984, then defend your claim.  Show us why.  Don't get upset and whine that I've "put you down."  Like I said before, actually defend your point.  People may respect you more.  And finally, let me assure you, you speak for only yourself.

[lumper]

Well let me leave you with a few things for yourself to look at.

I see you invest a lot of time convincing yourself that there is no reason to look into any of this again and that is clearly your free will.

I am not here to change anyones way of thinking and certainly would not want to offend anyone.

The great thing is we have the right to our opinions and the ability to agree to disagree.

For me the familes and victims and survivors pleading with the Amnerican people for assistance and not to forget but to pursue until the questions are answered is what drives me.

NIST so you know has not released any report regarding wtc 7 it is 6 years over due.
Kevin Ryan was fired from NIST for sending a letter to his department heads pointing out the falsified statements reflected in their intial report regarding the melting and stress point tempuratures being flawed.
he has joined the trth movement as well.

FEMA does not account for wtc 7 collapse except to say that the only hypothesis they considered, which was fire, has a low probability of occurance and could not sufficiently account for the symetrical 7 second collapse.

the 911 Commission report simply doesnt mention it.

The FBI's website shows bin laden under Americas most wanted, he is wanted for several crimes, 911 isnt mentioned, the FBI when asked has said, "we have no evidence to link Oasma bin Laden with 911"

This is a big question and it shoudl be, should we worry about building safety in buildings all over the world? that they might just suddeny collpase after 8 hours of small isolated fires?

we have several examples of buildings far older and some equal in age and construction type that burned for as long as 30 hours, full infernos, and stand to this day, so the questions from building engineers, firefighters, demolition experts, fema and fbi investigators seem important to me.

here are a few articles and quotes and a link to a page on my site where I have compiled a timeliene of sorts mostly regarding the lack of investigation where you can review the supposed investigations.

None were completed in accordance with any investigation to date, evidence destroyed and removed, overrulling investagotrs as to their methods which are standards in all other investigations, threatenign kegal action to agents investigting certain people, ommiting tetimoney, etc..

Talk to a detective, ask him what are the basic principles of any investigation, secure a crimescene, establish any possible suspects, question all those related to or familiar with the suspect to determine his wherabouts.

now review 911, crimescene was closed to all but one company at first, Controlled Demolition was allowed in the site to remove steel beams and take them to new jersey where they were fitted with gps tracking devices and shipped to other countries, mostly China, melted down and even made into commemoratives for sale.

remember when the nation was grounded from flying, several flights were allowed, all carried members of the Bin Laden Family out of the country and FBI agents were threatened not to interfere or question them.

Do you think these are acceptable practices for an investigation to determine the truth?

Most real detectives dont and are calling for a new investigation, as well as FBI, CIA, FEMA, Insurance companies, vitims families, etc... and so am I.

I would think if you really dont want to consider all possibilites, and have this looked at carefully to answer why nearly 3000 people were murdered, why the remains of over 1000 victims remain in a landfill, and why the statement by our president that we would use the full resources, whatever was necessary to determine who was responsible only to see the exact opposite was done, then why bother reading and attempting to debate the issue.

Clearly your position is more invested in trying to say that the offical accounts of what happened and subsequesnt investigations are all that are needed and perhaps we should just accept it?

Do you really believe that fire and lower structural damage to building 7 was all that contributed to its symetrical collapse?

It is alright my brother if you do, I dont fear or take issue with the idea that others have their own opinions its very important that we do.
I will leave you with a few things I think are issues, my search has nearly ended, I am considering the possible outcomes of the paths that have been chosen for us, preparedness and education I think for my money are where my time is best spent these days.


http://www.pyramis.tv/lumpers%20page.htm

that link will take you to a temporary page I have set up which uses newpaper headlines, video, audio, and eyewitness testimony as well as a timelime of the presidents statements vs his actions concerning an investigation.
there are videos you can watch there, federal documents you can read, etc..


The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks ... It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men.

-Samuel Adams


Col. Robert Bowman,

Head of Advanced Space Programs for the Department of Defense.

"The U.S, government at the highest levels may have committed treason and mass murder by purposely allowing 9/11 to happen."


President Bush
“I want to reassure the American people that the full resources of the federal government are working to assist local authorities to save lives and to help the victims of these attacks. Make no mistake: The United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts."

“The search is underway for those who are behind these evil acts. I've directed the full resources of our intelligence and law enforcement communities to find those responsible and to bring them to justice. We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them. "

what about the investigators?

The New York Times reports that “some of the nation's leading structural engineers and fire-safety experts” believe the investigation into the collapse of the WTC is “inadequate”, and “are calling for a new, independent and better-financed inquiry that could produce the kinds of conclusions vital for skyscrapers and future buildings nationwide.” Experts critical of the investigation include “some of those people who are actually conducting it.” They point out that the current team of 20 or so investigators has no subpoena power, inadequate financial support, little staff support, has been prevented from interviewing witnesses and frequently prevented from examining the disaster site, and has even been unable to obtain basic information like detailed blueprints of the buildings that collapsed. The decision to rapidly recycle the steel columns, beams and trusses from the WTC in the days immediately after 9/11 means definitive answers may never be known. [New York Times, 12/25/01] (Incredibly, some of the steel is being reforged into commemorative medallions selling for $30 apiece) [AP 1/30/02]


The New York Times reports that “some of the nation's leading structural engineers and fire-safety experts” believe the investigation into the collapse of the WTC is “inadequate”, and “are calling for a new, independent and better-financed inquiry that could produce the kinds of conclusions vital for skyscrapers and future buildings nationwide.” Experts critical of the investigation include “some of those people who are actually conducting it.” They point out that the current team of 20 or so investigators has no subpoena power, inadequate financial support, little staff support, has been prevented from interviewing witnesses and frequently prevented from examining the disaster site, and has even been unable to obtain basic information like detailed blueprints of the buildings that collapsed. The decision to rapidly recycle the steel columns, beams and trusses from the WTC in the days immediately after 9/11 means definitive answers may never be known. [New York Times, 12/25/01] (Incredibly, some of the steel is being reforged into commemorative medallions selling for $30 apiece) [AP 1/30/02]


A firefighter trade magazine with ties to the New York Fire Department calls the investigation into the collapse of the WTC a “half-baked farce.” The article points out that the probe has not looked at all aspects of the disaster and has had limited access to documents and other evidence. “The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.” It concludes that a growing number of fire protection engineers have theorized that “the structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.” [New York Daily News 1/4/02; Fire Engineering 1/02]




A report suggests the crash site of Flight 93 is being searched and recorded in 60 square-foot grids. [Delaware News Journal, 9/16/01] That's what the two forensic scientists in charge of the crash site wanted. They said doing so could help determine who was where when the plane crashed, and possibly how it crashed. However, almost a year later it comes out that that's not what actually happened. “The FBI overruled them, instead dividing the site into five large sectors. It would be too time-consuming to mark tight grids, and would serve no real investigative purpose, the bureau decided. There was no mystery to solve about the crash. Everybody knew what happened to the plane.” [, Jere Longman, 8/02, pp. 262-263] While the military may suggest there is no mystery, some articles have suggested the plane was shot down (for instance, see November 15, 2001 and August 13, 2002). Also, at the time of this decision, investigators were still considering the possibility a bomb may have destroyed the plane (see September 14, 2001).

January 29, 2002 

 WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush personally asked Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle Tuesday to limit the congressional investigation into the events of September 11, congressional and White House sources told CNN.

Bush says he is opposed to establishing a special, independent commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before 9/11. [CBS, 5/23/02]


December 21, 2001: Senators Introduce Bills to Create Independent 9/11 Commission

January 24, 2002: Cheney and Bush Pressure Senator to Avoid 9/11 Inquiry

May 23, 2002: Bush Opposes Special Inquiry into Terrorism Warnings

November 15, 2002: Congress Starts New 9/11 Investigation

Congress approves legislation creating an independent commission—the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States—to “examine and report on the facts and causes relating to the September 11th terrorist attacks” and “make a full and complete accounting of the circumstances surrounding the attacks.” President Bush signs it into law November 27, 2002. [US Congress, 11/27/2002]

The Democrats concede several important aspects of the commission (such as subpoena approval) after the White House threatens to create a commission by executive order, over which it would have more control. Bush will appoint the commission chairman and he sets a strict time frame (18 months) for the investigation. [CNN, 11/15/2002] The commission will only have a $3 million budget. Senator Jon Corzine (D) and others wonder how the commission can accomplish much with such a small budget. [Associated Press, 1/20/2003] The budget is later increased (see March 26, 2003).

Mid-December 2002-March 2003: 9/11 Commission Gets Off to Slow Start

January 27, 2003: 9/11 Commission Starts Off with Little Funding

“The focus of the commission will be on the future. We want to make recommendations that will make the American people more secure.… We’re not interested in trying to assess blame, we do not consider that part of the commission’s responsibility.” [United Press International, 2/6/2003]

March 26, 2003: Bush Turns Down Increased Budget for 9/11 Commission

March 27, 2003: Security Clearance of 9/11 Commission Members Stalled

Senators of both parties have been accusing the White House of stonewalling the 9/11 Commission by blocking its demands for documents despite threats of a subpoena. [Associated Press, 10/27/2003]


 April 29, 2004: Bush and Cheney Privately Meet with 9/11 Commission; Decline to Provide Testimony Under Oath

President Bush and Vice President Cheney appear for three hours of private questioning before the 9/11 Commission. (Former President Clinton and former Vice President Al Gore met privately and separately with the commission earlier in the month. [Washington Post, 4/30/2004; New York Times, 4/30/2004] ) The commission permits Bush and Cheney to appear together, in private, and not under oath. The testimony is not recorded. Commissioners can take notes, but the notes are censored by the White House. [Knight Ridder, 3/31/2004;


9/11 remains possibly used on roads court papers

Edith Honan
Reuters
Saturday, March 24, 2007

Debris that may have contained bits of bone from victims of the World Trade Center attacks was used to fill potholes and pave city roads, according to court papers filed on Friday.

The charge was made in an affidavit filed in Manhattan federal court in an ongoing case filed in 2005 by family members of those killed in the attacks against the city. They say the city did not do enough to search for remains, denying victims a proper burial.

Eric Beck, a construction worker employed at the Fresh Kills landfill in the borough of Staten Island, where the rubble was taken after the Twin Towers fell, said in his affidavit that the process of sifting through the debris was rushed.

Beck said he saw sanitation workers removing small pieces of debris containing possible bone fragments and loading them "onto tractors, and using it to pave roads and fill in potholes, dips and ruts."





this goes on and on and on.
there is no question that evidence was destroyed, that investigators were limited in access, funding, all their request to go unanswered.

These are few examples of how the investigations you mentioned were conducted.

Considering the statements made by the president, and considering how important this investigation would be there is no excuse for not getting it done.

When the space shuttle exploded over Texas, investigtors searched a massive area for parts or the shuttle, bodies, etc.. and arrested people who had simply touched evidence that landed near them, not on September 11th though.

But I digress, as I mentioned in my earlier post, It is time to look beyond all this once you conclude the truth, since debate will come from all sides in fierce opposition, and often lead to wasted time, derogatory remarks, and other childish campaigns by those who are offended.

The Federal reserve and the way it funcions and how its profits are made from taxation of the American people and they are nothing more than an uneccesasry middle man between congress and the treasury is what men like Ron Paul today are trying to educate Americans on.

On my site or their own site you can find the money masters, please watch it, if you dont see after watching carefully the history of central banking and fractional reserves then you just dont want to see.

I wonder how the lyrics from Immortals songs sit with those who seemingly spend their time debunking others statements right or wrong.

Or why they would be at such a site, as you all see to get to this section of the forum you have to first dare into the dirty word of conspiracism, then into a special section for 911, its not like it is an easy find.

Conspiracy = any crime or plan made in secret by two or more people

Terrorism =  The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

So to find opposition in a well hidden secondary section to a musicians website should only strengthen our resolve.

misdirection and disinformation are everywhere as the truth becomes known and more popular and educated people begin to think for themselves.
I find it encouraging, that we were at first ignored, now they oppose us, this means we are gaining momentum and as the 2008 elections approach, as the OPEC nations move away from the Dollar for Oil standard and slow the American economy the opposition will be out in full force.

At first people will react and say thats silly, and they did, then they will react with anger and become violently opposed, and they are,  then the truth will be accepted as self evident, all in time.

like The Maine, the Lusitania, The northwoods document, the Reichstag, the Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, and yes, 911.

Those unsure, should do your homework, source material, question the source, look at all the official statements and put them together.

Here is a statement from David Ray Griffin.

David Ray Griffin has published over 30 books, including four about 9/11. His next book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory, will be out in April.

in response to George Monbiot statements, George Monbiot accuses members of the 9/11 truth movement of being “morons” and “idiots” who believe in magic.

Griffin had this to say:

03/07/07 "ICH " -- - If my books are moronic nonsense, then people who have endorsed them must be morons. Would Monbiot really wish to apply this label to

Michel Chossudovsky,

 Richard Falk,

 Ray McGovern,

 Michael Meacher,

 John McMurtry,

Marcus Raskin,

 Rosemary Ruether,

Howard Zinn,

and the late Rev. William Sloane Coffin, who, after a stint in the CIA, became one of America’s leading civil rights, anti-war, and anti-nuclear activists?

If anyone who believes that 9/11 was an inside job is by definition an idiot, then Moncbiot would have to sling that label at

Colonel Robert Bowman, former head of the U.S. “Star Wars” program;

Andreas von Bülow, former State Secretary in the German Federal Ministry of Defense;

former CIA analysts Bill Christison and Robert David Steele;

former Scientific American columnist A. K. Dewdney;

General Leonid Ivashov, former chief of staff of the Russian armed forces;

Colonel Ronald D. Ray, former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense;

all the members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, Veterans for 9/11 Truth, and Pilots for 9/11 Truth; and most of the individuals listed under “Professors Question 9/11” on the “Patriots Question 9/11” website.


One of the reasons these people reject the government’s conspiracy theory is that, if they were to accept the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Centre, they would need to affirm magical beliefs. A few examples:

The Twin Towers came straight down, which means that each building’s 287 steel columns all had to fail simultaneously; to believe this could happen without explosives is to believe in magic.

At the onset of each tower’s collapse, steel beams were ejected out as far as 600 feet; to believe that these horizontal ejections could be explained by gravitational energy, which is vertical, is to believe in magic.

Virtually all of the concrete in the towers was pulverized into extremely fine dust particles; to believe that fire plus gravity could have done this is to believe in magic.

WTC 7 and the towers came down at virtually free-fall speed, meaning that the lower floors, with all their steel and concrete, provided no resistance to the upper floors; to believe this could happen without explosives is to believe in magic.

Pools of molten metal were found under each building. Because steel does not begin to melt until it reaches about 1,540°C and yet the fires could not have gotten over 1000°C, to accept the fire theory is to believe in magic.

Monbiot, regarding the 9/11 truth movement’s conspiracy theory as a wrong-headed distraction, fails to see that the obviously false and truly distracting conspiracy theory is the official 9/11 myth, which has been used to justify imperial wars and increased militarism, thereby distracting attention from global apartheid and the ecological crisis. We focus on the 9/11 myth because, until it is exposed, getting our governments to focus wholeheartedly on the truly urgent issues of our time will be impossible.



Good luck in your search as individuals.

911 was necessary to expand a geopolitical strategy concieved by a neo conservative think tank called the project for a new american century, google it, their website has the paper, strengthening Americas defenses.

Its original author, Paul wolfawitz, head of the world bank, took his place in the Bush Administration as well as 12 others who signed and co authored the strategy, it would be 10 months later and we had a new pearl harbor as they stated in their writing they would need to further their objectives.

This is a plan to preemptively attack any nation that may one day challenge the US, to control the internet, to create a new division of armed forces called the "Space Forces" to increase their manpower to allow multiple simultaneous occupations and wars.

this is all in the name of maintianing a dying inflated economy that without massive defense spending and maintaining the dollar for oil policy will certainly crash.

you can download the strategy for yourself and read through it as well as the patriot act, the enhanced domestic security act, the victory act, the northwoods document, and many other important reads that will show you what HAS happened, not speculate on them but see for yourself.


When the federal reserve was still undermining America to gain control our leaders of the day were in fierce opposition, which is why it took until 1913 for them to solidify a charter, albeit illegal and unconstitutional.


heres what a few of them had to say.


1923 Charles a Lindbergh, a republican representative from  Minnesota  and father of lucky lindy the aviator said

"The financial system has been turned over to the federal reserve board, that board administers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group.
The system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other peoples money."

 
Louis T McFadden

Former chairman to the house banking and currency committee during the great depression years. 1932,

we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever knows, I refer to the federal reserve board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the united states and has practically bankrupted our government, it has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it.


Senator Barry Goldwater , a frequent critic of the banks

 Most Americans have no real understanding of the operations of the international money lenders, the accounts of the federal reserve system have never been audited, it operates outside the control of congress and manipulates the credit of the united states
The federal reserve is the largest single creditor to the united states
Throughout our history the battle of who prints the money has gone back and forth between congress and some sort of central banking system.
Whoever controls the issuance, has a great deal of influence and power and obviously unlimited resources for themselves while not allowing any competition or alternative.

 
Jefferson, said

I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it belongs

 

James Madison, agreed and called them money changers, he said

 History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance.



heres a list of videos you may want to look at you can find them on torrent sites using azures.

The money masters

911 An American Empire - Intellectuals speak out

BYU_professor_Stephen_E_Jones_at_UVSC_February_1_2006_slideshow_photos

Stephen Jones on 911

Stephen Jones update

911 revealing the truth - Stephen Jones_6-2-2006

911 lifting the fog parts 1-4

911 loose change

911 eyewitnesses and bonus footage

911 guilt

911 in plane site plus bonus footage

2001 ABC Primetime - 911 NYPD Chopper Rescue Attempts

911 building the world trade center




Peace my friends and fellow inhabitants of planet earth.

the truth will set us free


EISENHOWER

        The conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new

        in the American experience. The total influence economic, political, even spiritual is felt

        in every city, every statehouse, every office of the Federal Government ... In the councils of

        government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or

        unsought, by the military industrial complex.

        The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist ... We

        must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.

      We should take nothing for granted ...



"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."

-Harry S Truman


"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere -- so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive -- that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

-Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom, 1913


Lump

[Cropower]

It is very nice to see that people still think about this issue, that is one chapter in our recent history that will change all our lives and lives of our children as well. 
There is a very nice site that has a lot of info regards this and many other topics, as well as short wave radio brodcasts and more.

www. infowars. com

[Godfather of Soul]

Search function hommie.

[murdaLicious]

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere -- so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive -- that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

-Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom, 1913

You know Woodrow Wilson was a big Klan supporter, right?  So when he talks about a subtle, organized power, I'm willing to bet he's talking about the Jewish Cabal.  Not exactly credible.