Why white people cannot be trusted with hip-hop...

[Godfather of Soul]

A black person can achieve a level of wealth and power that gives them the ability to be racist in the US, however they are racist in that they usually support pre-existing policies that negatively impact people of color.  They do this because they are willing TOKENS in white supremacy  However, they are the EXCEPTIONS, literally in the few dozen of actual living people as compared to the MILLIONS of black and brown people who have their opportunities limited by white supremacy.

And in the US, racism trumps capitalism by far.  Access to capitalism is limited through racism.

[GG]

Why change defenitions when a term doesn't reflect the actual meaning anymore, to me that just makes things more complicated and prone to backfiring as sat said.
Talk about 'actual' or 'real' racism or something, but saying that someone with no 'power' can't be racist (in the most broad definition of the word) seems ridiculous to me.

I think everyone is right here.

[Godfather of Soul]

The revised definition gets to the CORE of the problem, which is that POWER is the issue.  It's unfair to have a discussion of a behavior that manifests itself specifically because of a difference in power without talking about power.  Racism in the world manifests itself in meaningful ways because of power.  All of the disparities between whites and the majority of the world are because of power differences.  What does the racism of the powerless mean?  It means very little because the impact on the systems that define our lives is minimal.

It just happens that white people have power at this particular historical moment.  Their power comes largely from race.  Their color prejudices matter MORE than any other groups because they have power.  In Japan, the power rests with those who are ethnically Japanese.  They are racist against those who are ethnically different because their power comes from their ethnic identities. 

But to bring this back to the topic at hand, since it has veered rather wildly into related, yet off-topic issues: 

There was a marked difference in the development in hiphop when white owned corporations gained the ability to distribute and produce it.  This is not to say that there is something pathological about white people, but they have used their power not to expand the culture, but to limit it to highly stereotypical and historically problematic expressions within a very limited spectrum.  Those that do not yield to the largely WHITE ownership of hiphop are relegated to the underground and obscurity.  I stand by the title of this thread, not because I believe there is something inherently pathological about white people, but rather because white people are those that have power, race based power, which they have abused and corrupted the spirit of the culture with.  They, largely, are the gate keepers of what popular hiphop is, and that, in my opinion, is dangerous because they were not instrumental in the development of the culture, nor are they at the center of its most authentic displays.

[Bob]

Well said, but I honestly feel that the definition of consumerism ought to be introduced:

1 # the theory that an increasing consumption of goods is economically beneficial
2 # a movement advocating greater protection of the interests of consumers Link

As we can see here, the definition does not also involve (1), but also (2) to protect consumer surplus. Mainstream or white market for most part believe (due to conditioning) that the stereotypical definition of black is applicable to all belong to the cultural group. That is why due to the commercialization of Hip Hop has led the emphasis has been on stereotypical tilt.

This isn't new either. Well before Hip Hop, white America has enjoyed the stereotypical representation of blacks in entertainment and that has reinforced the race-based socio-economic disparity. It is only this reason why Hip Hop ought to be protected from white influence, and  not evolve into what Jazz and Rock is today. Public institutions control by Blacks and Brown folks will allow Hip Hop to be sustained rather than being maligned by consumerism.

Note: This has nothing to do with barring mass distribution.

[Sativa Indica]

The revised definition gets to the CORE of the problem, which is that POWER is the issue

and as i was saying, what you now claim is that if we destroy this white power structure then in america NO ONE IS RACIST ANYMORE.....hah my arse

[Bob]

and as i was saying, what you now claim is that if we destroy this white power structure then in america NO ONE IS RACIST ANYMORE.....hah my arse

No, because then numerical et al superiority would matter. However if white power structure is destroyed, we can then deal with the individual racial disparity which has the subordinate class predominantly on the negative end of the disparity.

[Sativa Indica]

oh ok. THEN we can call it racism, now its prejudice but once the power strutuce is gone, THEN its racism.

[Bob]

oh ok. THEN we can call it racism, now its prejudice but once the power strutuce is gone, THEN its racism.

I don't care. It could be called individual racism. The point is the negative side of the disparity leans toward the coloured folk and not the white counterpart. No one here needs to defend white folks.

The fact is the white mainstream is largely promoting the racist system. That is why I feel that we need a equalization scheme where those of colour control their own institutions. I can see my own suffering when they depend on these white-run institutions who claim inclusiveness with their multi-culturalism bullshit.

That may not be obvious to you. But I do find it ironic that you drag this discussion considering Malaysia for a while wasn't even promoting the interests of ethnic Malay people. Then again that's applicable for their brothers and sisters in Indonesia and Philippines too. I guess they ought to accept their secondary status under a more parasitic form of Capitalism.

But my point is, generally aboriginals or dark-skinned skinned immigrants who arrived 30 years ago, are now seeing their own bleed. It's worse for Aboriginals, African-Americans, etc who were forced to develop under white institutions.  We hear nonsense about freedom, multi-culturalism et al, and yet we see a racist and sexist disparity. No wonder the native populace of the nations we bomb really don't want to be under our unconditionally inclusive institutions.

That is my point. Quit focusing on definition and take a look at the disparity.

[Sativa Indica]

cant you see tho that the definition is the ONLY topic of dispute here. most would agree with every thung you say about the system, the ownership of power, means of effectively actinbg upon prejudice thus oppresing.

but its wheh you say, "hes not racist, he's raciallly prejudice."  thats wher we have problem. or even

"only white people can be racits in UK and US, the rest are prejudice"

[Bob]

cant you see tho that the definition is the ONLY topic of dispute here. most would agree with every thung you say about the system, the ownership of power, means of effectively actinbg upon prejudice thus oppresing.

Ok. I hope that is the case. Those past sarcastic remark by you, and the rest of the pack really got me thinking. To be honest, my expectations of my colour intellectuals were never that high in the first place:

The to measure the oppressed with the same ruler as the oppressor is inane.

but its wheh you say, "hes not racist, he's raciallly prejudice."  thats wher we have problem. or even

However you must understand why those of colour under the negative end of the disparity may behave in such a manner. They do so, due to lack of power. To be aboriginal in Canada, means highly poverty, death through prostitution for females, and gang violence for males. Obviously folks will be bent when they see whites protected.

Hip Hop brings this shit up all the time. It's something we all ought to understand, because even if one listens to 50 Cent, Jay-Z, et al, and you could feel that these individuals have accepted their lowly position in society. Shit, 2pac and IT is more unadulterated, so it puzzles me when past exchanges constant ignore this glaring disparity?

In standard debate, we focus on the issue, not a definition that is clearly defined. Palestinians, also, could be seen as hate crime specialists since many have bombed Israel civilians. Hell, that does not even happen in US et al. But suggesting that they're racist is poor analysis and is ignoring how these conditions that led to terror arose. They are trying to counter oppression.

But yo, I'm on my 18th repetition, 6x too many.

"only white people can be racits in UK and US, the rest are prejudice"

Let's be real here. Whites don't invite those of colour into institutions. They don't represent the majority even in the individual racism dimension.

Hell, I don't see many colour folks running over to country and white culture. In contrast, even though the black community (Aboriginal and Hispanic, included) are commonly viewed as threatening by Eurocentrism, these cultural groups continue to provide a culture that is highly inclusive. Look at Jazz, Rock, Techno, House (Yes, both are black, yo), and Hip Hop cultures. I see, whites in all of them and now Rock sounds like muffled up screams coming out of a black girl that was raped.

Your attempt to introduce reverse racism is based on weak premises. It assumes racism against whites men is an issue in public policy, and fails to see the power dynamic at work. One white man being beaten up by ten Hispanics males due to his skin tone, suggests power. There is numerical superiority on the Hispanic side. However, if forming public policy, this exception is so irrelevant. The Hispanic may be more powerful in a ghetto or prison, but the fuck wants to be there?

Last, I don't think the position I maintain is alien. After all, we're dealing with Hip Hop which clusters far closer to the words of Malcolm X than those of MLK. Hell, not even MLK opposed equalization--- Err...I sometimes wonder, do we all listen to the same genre? I feel for the Emo, but he's second to the subordinate class, period.

[Sativa Indica]

as i said, the only issue here is youir definition of racism resulting in a re-classification of a persons prejudice based upon whether or not that persons race is in control of power.

thats is the only issue here.

i mention nothing about reverse racism, or nothing about power or infact any of the other bulshit you accuyse me of.

the only view we differ on is that a person can be racist regardless of whetehr or not that persons race is in control of power.

spin all you want to make your self look better, but at the end of the day this is the only thing we disagree with.

[ineed<3]

Ok. I hope that is the case. Those past sarcastic remark by you, and the rest of the pack really got me thinking. To be honest, my expectations of my colour intellectuals were never that high in the first place:

The to measure the oppressed with the same ruler as the oppressor is inane.
 However you must understand why those of colour under the negative end of the disparity may behave in such a manner. They do so, due to lack of power. To be aboriginal in Canada, means highly poverty, death through prostitution for females, and gang violence for males. Obviously folks will be bent when they see whites protected.

Hip Hop brings this shit up all the time. It's something we all ought to understand, because even if one listens to 50 Cent, Jay-Z, et al, and you could feel that these individuals have accepted their lowly position in society. Shit, 2pac and IT is more unadulterated, so it puzzles me when past exchanges constant ignore this glaring disparity?

In standard debate, we focus on the issue, not a definition that is clearly defined. Palestinians, also, could be seen as hate crime specialists since many have bombed Israel civilians. Hell, that does not even happen in US et al. But suggesting that they're racist is poor analysis and is ignoring how these conditions that led to terror arose. They are trying to counter oppression.

But yo, I'm on my 18th repetition, 6x too many.
 Let's be real here. Whites don't invite those of colour into institutions. They don't represent the majority even in the individual racism dimension.

Hell, I don't see many colour folks running over to country and white culture. In contrast, even though the black community (Aboriginal and Hispanic, included) are commonly viewed as threatening by Eurocentrism, these cultural groups continue to provide a culture that is highly inclusive. Look at Jazz, Rock, Techno, House (Yes, both are black, yo), and Hip Hop cultures. I see, whites in all of them and now Rock sounds like muffled up screams coming out of a black girl that was raped.

Your attempt to introduce reverse racism is based on weak premises. It assumes racism against whites men is an issue in public policy, and fails to see the power dynamic at work. One white man being beaten up by ten Hispanics males due to his skin tone, suggests power. There is numerical superiority on the Hispanic side. However, if forming public policy, this exception is so irrelevant. The Hispanic may be more powerful in a ghetto or prison, but the fuck wants to be there?

Last, I don't think the position I maintain is alien. After all, we're dealing with Hip Hop which clusters far closer to the words of Malcolm X than those of MLK. Hell, not even MLK opposed equalization--- Err...I sometimes wonder, do we all listen to the same genre? I feel for the Emo, but he's second to the subordinate class, period.

ignored^^

[Bob]

as i said, the only issue here is youir definition of racism resulting in a re-classification of a persons prejudice based upon whether or not that persons race is in control of power.

I cannot read you mind, won't, but do remember prior exchanges.

thats is the only issue here.

As I said earlier, ok, I hope so.

i mention nothing about reverse racism, or nothing about power or infact any of the other bulshit you accuyse me of.

Your redefinition can result to such implications. It's a dangerous game to further analysis, because it became clear right after the paedophile remarks.

the only view we differ on is that a person can be racist regardless of whetehr or not that persons race is in control of power.

Racism is about power. The ten black guys beating up one dude, is possible due to numerical superiority hence power. That is suggested in racist theory, from Goldberg to the rest. The issue with the definition is, whether racism is individual or institutional. In sum, the psychological or sociology schools.

Note: Power dynamic applies to both.

Note 2: Remove power, and the powerless Palestinian is racist too. 

PS: That is all. This discussion is definitely finished.

[Godfather of Soul]

One results in hurt feelings and mistrust and occasional violence.

The other results in shorter life-expectancy, mass-incarceration, murder, limited opportunities and death. 

This is the key difference.  They are not nearly equal and to have an honest discussion of how racism really works, then you need to do this balance test.  Otherwise you're blaming the victims.

[Bob]

Exactly. Standardization is requisite in academic discourse. Without that, we're entering the word of pseudo or sub-intellectual babble which is so popular in the popular media realm. 

Public policy deals with valid generalizations and to suggest that a disparity that nearly always has the subordinate class on the negative side is quite reinforced.  That is why we need democratization of the institutions, because today, the dominant over represents the democratic sphere.

Hip Hop is the only vehicle where the subordinate can point out this hellish disparity. Jazz and Rock once did, but now that it is hijacked by white-led consumerism, that is no longer the case. We do not want this to happen with Hip Hop.