Is there a God?

[Godfather of Soul]

I just think it's funny that people claim to know so much about something they've never seen or experienced. Everyone believes it so it must be true. If a god does exist, he/she/it is not doing a great job

What job would that be?

Well most religions claim that god is all-knowing, all-loving, etc but how can that be true when you consider the state the world is currently in? If god has the power to do anything and everything, then why don't they use this to prevent terrible things happening to people who don't deserve it? Some argue the "it's a test" belief but I don't buy it. 

not my thoughts, but ill run them by you anyway ...

imagine a rabbit with its leg caught in a trap. and a farmer finds it, and decides to get the rabbit free it has to cut its leg off. all the rabbit sees is the suffering, and wonders why is the farmer cutting its foot. not knowing that the farmer isnt trying to make it suffer, but trying to help it.


if that makes sense

Ok...so you are arguing that we are incapable of understanding god?  Ok...so why even TRY and believe in it?

But that doesn't even make sense because god doesn't NEED a trap...god can just make the rabbit aware because god is ALL POWERFUL.  The rabbit doesn't need to suffer because god has the POWER to stop it...otherwise god is a sadistic teacher, one i hope I don't learn any lessons from.

Here's a question...Can we accept the possibility that there is an all powerful EVIL?  Why does god have to be good?  Maybe good is WRONG...  Why is that possibility totally out of the realm for people who are religious?  Why does god always have to be good?  I am more comfortable with a god who doesn't give a shit or is aloof or incompetent than I am a god who cares and teachs through absolute SADISM.

[Godfather of Soul]

I see what your saying but i guess if a God does exists it is in the spiritual and not the physical.

Prove the existence of a spiritual...YOU CAN'T!  If you can prove ONE supernatural phenomenon this man will give you ONE MILLION DOLLARS:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

DO IT! He will happily give it to you!

[omega]

There are theories as to what there was. Again, if you want me to give you some of them I can, but I would rather just recommend whole books, as they do a much better job than I would with the complexities of the "what existed before question."  One theory is that the universe is a never ending cycles of contraction and expansion that has always been and will always be.  There are others that posit that our experience of four dimensions is just a slice of possibly infinite numbers of dimensions.  They have mathematically proven the existence of 10 dimensions.  9 space and 1 time.  There is another that says there are 11.  There are many things out there that we cannot see...the majority of the mass in the universe is called "dark energy" and "dark matter"...we mathematically know it is there but have yet to empirically find any of it. 

Certainly there was no time before the big bang, and without time we have no ability to ever conceive of what there was "before" the big bang...Time exists as a result of the big bang, as does the way that we experience it. 

You cannot say that the burden rests on both sides.  I cannot ever fully disprove something.  You cannot fully prove anything.  However, the burden is much greater on someone who says that something is there than the pwerson who says that it is not.  If I say there are leprechauns in the forest, are you going to accept it?  Are you going to say that it is YOUR responsibility as someone who does not believe in leprechauns to DISPROVE their existence, or is it the responsibility of the one who claims they exist to SHOW you?  Positive proof is the foundation for evidence.  Negative evidence is an almost impossibile standard, one that groups like 9/11 truth use ad nauseum...
 
We can talk in likliehoods, of probabilities...In my opinion there is a high probability that there is NO god...all of the physical, moral, and otherwise empirical evidence points in the other direction.  The concept of god has been dealt serious blows by evolution, the big bang, quantum mechanics and string theory...All of those combined do enough to disprove god for me, but not enough for me to say 100% that there is no god...There are no absolutes, that's how the univerese works...the laws that we see today may not be there tomorrow.  There are explanations as to why those "laws" are as stable as they are...however one thing is certain, everything moves to a higher state of entropy (chaos)...everything, even blackholes. 

A simple proposition, one in which I will prove with negative evidence:

Show me that there is NOT a heaven.
 
*does nothing*

Done. Argument over. I need not do anything to prove my position because it is NOT up to me to show ANYTHING.  I can show nothing by doing NOTHING.

     

Give me some book names and i will add them to my long list of "to read" books lol.

Your looking at in a different way than me I think. Your looking at it as if science and God are two completely different things. Whereas my belief is that God is what links science, and the spiritual. Like, the big bang, evolution - it all explains how God works. But our soul, afterlife, etc - that is the spiritual realm where God also dwells. The afterlife may just be another dimension, but if it is we will never know what it is until we enter it - which would be by death, and entering as a spiritual being. I think as science gets further it just gets closer to explaining God. I mean, evolution, the big bang - they do not prove there is no God. Why do they have to work as alternatives? Why can they not be scientific explanations of how God works.

What are your thoughts on the soul. Do you believe in that? Or afterlife, a spiritual realm. All those sort of ideas.

I think again we are on two different things when it comes to burden of proof, just a misunderstanding. I understand that the burden of proof is on those prooving God, in the sense of a debate of existance. I was more thinking of a debate between alternate theories. But i get you know.

[omega]

I just think it's funny that people claim to know so much about something they've never seen or experienced. Everyone believes it so it must be true. If a god does exist, he/she/it is not doing a great job

What job would that be?

Well most religions claim that god is all-knowing, all-loving, etc but how can that be true when you consider the state the world is currently in? If god has the power to do anything and everything, then why don't they use this to prevent terrible things happening to people who don't deserve it? Some argue the "it's a test" belief but I don't buy it. 

not my thoughts, but ill run them by you anyway ...

imagine a rabbit with its leg caught in a trap. and a farmer finds it, and decides to get the rabbit free it has to cut its leg off. all the rabbit sees is the suffering, and wonders why is the farmer cutting its foot. not knowing that the farmer isnt trying to make it suffer, but trying to help it.


if that makes sense

Ok...so you are arguing that we are incapable of understanding god?  Ok...so why even TRY and believe in it?

But that doesn't even make sense because god doesn't NEED a trap...god can just make the rabbit aware because god is ALL POWERFUL.  The rabbit doesn't need to suffer because god has the POWER to stop it...otherwise god is a sadistic teacher, one i hope I don't learn any lessons from.

Here's a question...Can we accept the possibility that there is an all powerful EVIL?  Why does god have to be good?  Maybe good is WRONG...  Why is that possibility totally out of the realm for people who are religious?  Why does god always have to be good?  I am more comfortable with a god who doesn't give a shit or is aloof or incompetent than I am a god who cares and teachs through absolute SADISM.

I believe that evil is the the distance you put yourself from God. Everything around us is material, you know that. Some people have it harder, some people have it easier. We have free will, to believe or to not, and that is where it has brought us. But when it comes down to it the material isn't all important. Poor can still be happy, and rich can be depressed. Love is stronger than anything we face. You can be dying, and still be happy, if you believe in your heart you are suffering for a reason worth suffering for. Its up to us to turn to God, not up to him to turn to us. If we want happyiness, we can have it - its just hard in the world we live in. You have to seperate yourself from it, much like meditation. Personally i prefer to sit out in the countryside on a clear night, in the fresh air and just stare up at the stars.

[JC]

So do you apply that same standard to police officers?  Do they have the right to arrest you without proof because they feel it?  Are you obliged to PROVE that you are NOT doing something or do they have to prove that you ARE.  It is impossible to prove a negative because it is proving that there is NOTHING there...If you claim that there is something there it is up to YOU to show me that it's there, not for me to show you that it is not.

Also, do you beliveve in the big bang?  If you do, then there is little room for god.  I can recommend some great books on theoretical physicis (written for understandibility) that might change your opinion on god a little bit.  Physics has done a great deal to dispell a lot of the "unknown"...there is a great deal of unknown, but we do know that there was a big bang and that everything extends from it, including us.

But the question drops again, what was before the big bang. What started it. What created what was needed for it. You know? I guess we never will really know. I don't believe in a higher power like the bible states, that you have to pray too all the time, etc. I believe in Jesus, but not that he was some sort of immortal being. I believe he was a great philosopher. And i believe he got close to God physically, much like people feel they can through meditation.

i still believe the proof burden lies on both parts. Because neither is factual, and neither are accepted.

"What was there before the big bang?" Why make up answers to questions? I don't know you don't know and at the moment no one knows or they are keeping it a secret.

[ThaRebeliouZ]

I see what your saying but i guess if a God does exists it is in the spiritual and not the physical.

Prove the existence of a spiritual...YOU CAN'T! If you can prove ONE supernatural phenomenon this man will give you ONE MILLION DOLLARS:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

DO IT! He will happily give it to you!

omega answered this for me already.

Your looking at it as if science and God are two completely different things. Whereas my belief is that God is what links science, and the spiritual. Like, the big bang, evolution - it all explains how God works. But our soul, afterlife, etc - that is the spiritual realm where God also dwells. The afterlife may just be another dimension, but if it is we will never know what it is until we enter it - which would be by death, and entering as a spiritual being. I think as science gets further it just gets closer to explaining God. I mean, evolution, the big bang - they do not prove there is no God. Why do they have to work as alternatives? Why can they not be scientific explanations of how God works.

[omega]

So do you apply that same standard to police officers?  Do they have the right to arrest you without proof because they feel it?  Are you obliged to PROVE that you are NOT doing something or do they have to prove that you ARE.  It is impossible to prove a negative because it is proving that there is NOTHING there...If you claim that there is something there it is up to YOU to show me that it's there, not for me to show you that it is not.

Also, do you beliveve in the big bang?  If you do, then there is little room for god.  I can recommend some great books on theoretical physicis (written for understandibility) that might change your opinion on god a little bit.  Physics has done a great deal to dispell a lot of the "unknown"...there is a great deal of unknown, but we do know that there was a big bang and that everything extends from it, including us.

But the question drops again, what was before the big bang. What started it. What created what was needed for it. You know? I guess we never will really know. I don't believe in a higher power like the bible states, that you have to pray too all the time, etc. I believe in Jesus, but not that he was some sort of immortal being. I believe he was a great philosopher. And i believe he got close to God physically, much like people feel they can through meditation.

i still believe the proof burden lies on both parts. Because neither is factual, and neither are accepted.

"What was there before the big bang?" Why make up answers to questions? I don't know you don't know and at the moment no one knows or they are keeping it a secret.

Because we do it for everything. What holds us to the earth? you say gravity. It might not be. Or what is gravity. Prove to me its not an alien magnet planted in the core of the earth 100,000 years ago. You cant. We make up answers to everything. None of it is real, none of it is truth or fact. Its our own lconclusions. We know HOW it happens, but what made it happen?

[ThaRebeliouZ]

So do you apply that same standard to police officers?  Do they have the right to arrest you without proof because they feel it?  Are you obliged to PROVE that you are NOT doing something or do they have to prove that you ARE.  It is impossible to prove a negative because it is proving that there is NOTHING there...If you claim that there is something there it is up to YOU to show me that it's there, not for me to show you that it is not.

Also, do you beliveve in the big bang?  If you do, then there is little room for god.  I can recommend some great books on theoretical physicis (written for understandibility) that might change your opinion on god a little bit.  Physics has done a great deal to dispell a lot of the "unknown"...there is a great deal of unknown, but we do know that there was a big bang and that everything extends from it, including us.

But the question drops again, what was before the big bang. What started it. What created what was needed for it. You know? I guess we never will really know. I don't believe in a higher power like the bible states, that you have to pray too all the time, etc. I believe in Jesus, but not that he was some sort of immortal being. I believe he was a great philosopher. And i believe he got close to God physically, much like people feel they can through meditation.

i still believe the proof burden lies on both parts. Because neither is factual, and neither are accepted.

"What was there before the big bang?" Why make up answers to questions? I don't know you don't know and at the moment no one knows or they are keeping it a secret.

Because we do it for everything. What holds us to the earth? you say gravity. It might not be. Or what is gravity. Prove to me its not an alien magnet planted in the core of the earth 100,000 years ago. You cant. We make up answers to everything. None of it is real, none of it is truth or fact. Its our own lconclusions. We know HOW it happens, but what made it happen?

Exactly and that's pretty much what faith is, To have a firm belief in something which cannot be proven.

[JC]

So do you apply that same standard to police officers?  Do they have the right to arrest you without proof because they feel it?  Are you obliged to PROVE that you are NOT doing something or do they have to prove that you ARE.  It is impossible to prove a negative because it is proving that there is NOTHING there...If you claim that there is something there it is up to YOU to show me that it's there, not for me to show you that it is not.

Also, do you beliveve in the big bang?  If you do, then there is little room for god.  I can recommend some great books on theoretical physicis (written for understandibility) that might change your opinion on god a little bit.  Physics has done a great deal to dispell a lot of the "unknown"...there is a great deal of unknown, but we do know that there was a big bang and that everything extends from it, including us.

But the question drops again, what was before the big bang. What started it. What created what was needed for it. You know? I guess we never will really know. I don't believe in a higher power like the bible states, that you have to pray too all the time, etc. I believe in Jesus, but not that he was some sort of immortal being. I believe he was a great philosopher. And i believe he got close to God physically, much like people feel they can through meditation.

i still believe the proof burden lies on both parts. Because neither is factual, and neither are accepted.

"What was there before the big bang?" Why make up answers to questions? I don't know you don't know and at the moment no one knows or they are keeping it a secret.

Because we do it for everything. What holds us to the earth? you say gravity. It might not be. Or what is gravity. Prove to me its not an alien magnet planted in the core of the earth 100,000 years ago. You cant. We make up answers to everything. None of it is real, none of it is truth or fact. Its our own lconclusions. We know HOW it happens, but what made it happen?

There is proof we are stuck to the earth unless enough force is generated to move away from it. Because when I jump I come back down, now you can change the name to whatever you want but I am still grounded. It is real direct proof. Now you show me real direct proof god exists and not some malarkey "all you have to do is look around." I do not claim to have all the answers about anything but I do know there is no proof of gods existence, accept delusion and tradition.

[KillJoy]

god is a big mac.
prove me wrong.

[NSKerben]

Your wrong good is a flying spaghetti monster  http://www.venganza.org/ .

[Doob]

We cannot prove ANYTHING
i could say that i am blind and have no hands
but since you cannot see me at this time then you could never prove it
that is the way it is with religion science
because just because a smart person said it, doesnt always mean its true
what is smart?

[Godfather of Soul]

Give me some book names and i will add them to my long list of "to read" books lol.

Your looking at in a different way than me I think. Your looking at it as if science and God are two completely different things. Whereas my belief is that God is what links science, and the spiritual. Like, the big bang, evolution - it all explains how God works. But our soul, afterlife, etc - that is the spiritual realm where God also dwells. The afterlife may just be another dimension, but if it is we will never know what it is until we enter it - which would be by death, and entering as a spiritual being. I think as science gets further it just gets closer to explaining God. I mean, evolution, the big bang - they do not prove there is no God. Why do they have to work as alternatives? Why can they not be scientific explanations of how God works.

What are your thoughts on the soul. Do you believe in that? Or afterlife, a spiritual realm. All those sort of ideas.

I think again we are on two different things when it comes to burden of proof, just a misunderstanding. I understand that the burden of proof is on those prooving God, in the sense of a debate of existance. I was more thinking of a debate between alternate theories. But i get you know.

Books-  Anything by Richard Dawkins
More specifically as to the origins of the Universe: Both of these are by Brian Greene...The Elegant Universe and The Fabric of the Cosmos.  Both are mind blowing and go back to about as near to 0 time as possible (10-36sec or Planck Time)

Your looking at it as if science and God are two completely different things.

They are two totally and utterly irredeamable things.  One is supernatural and one is wholly natural and mathematical.

whereas my belief is that God is what links science, and the spiritual.

So, in essence you believe in a god of the gaps?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

This would be a god whose existence is perpetually shrinking as science eliminates more and more gaps.

But our soul, afterlife, etc - that is the spiritual realm where God also dwells. The afterlife may just be another dimension, but if it is we will never know what it is until we enter it - which would be by death, and entering as a spiritual being.

Seeing as no one or no thing has ever gone to the afterlife and been able to replicate their experience it can be seen as an unverifiable belief, most likely a halucination for those who claim to have been there.  There is no evidence of a soul and there is no evidence of an afterlife, absolutely zero.  If there is an essence to mankind, all I ask is for you to SHOW me it and I will become a zelaous believer to the end of my days.  But that is the foundation of supernatural belief, it cannot be verified and is based wholly on faith.  It's funny that eternity is the only thing that rational human beings are willing to trust to faith...everything else that they deal with requires empirical evidence.

I mean, evolution, the big bang - they do not prove there is no God. Why do they have to work as alternatives? Why can they not be scientific explanations of how God works.

They prove that there is evolution and that there was a big bang.  They do not disprove god because god is not their concern.  The evolution of species and the physical inflationary bang that gave rise to all that we see now are what they are concerned with.  Religion tries to fit them into belief structures because the best that they can do is accept a god of the gaps in the face of overwhelming evidence that destroys the idea of an entity that created us and everything.  Also, nothing is static, except the creator, because the creator is eternal... so that creator must be creating all the time...yet we somehow believe that we are eternal or have an eternal essence.  How can we be eternal when the only unchanging thing is god?  Are we god because we change, yet god supposedly does not change because god exists?  If so, then god is   
very seriously fucked up. 

They have to work as alternatives because one makes claims that cannot be verified outside of faith (god) and the other makes claims that can be verified mathematically or empirically (science).  The two can sometimes mix, yet science seems to almost always come out ahead when dealing with nature.

What are your thoughts on the soul. Do you believe in that? Or afterlife, a spiritual realm. All those sort of ideas.

Honestly, and I mean no particular offense, but I think they're bullshit.  I think they were created by man so that man can feel okay and feel special when man is really nothing.  We are infinitesimally small....not even the size of a grain of sand on our planet in our solar system.  That his how meaningless our existence is.  In the face of that, man has created coping mechanisms, first in order to make sense of the unknown, and later in order to make the fact that our existence has no meaning outside what we assign it, less impactful.  I can fully accept that life is a big charrade and that the only things that are important are the things that you MAKE important.  There is no intrinsic value in anything.  It's depressing, but it's honest and I am not afraid of it.  I don't need a soul to feel okay with my life.  I don't need a god to feel connected with all of the organic life on my planet, because we are all linked and my atoms will one day go on to make stars and vice versa.  So in a way, we are horribly alone yet horribly connected.  Matter cannot be created nor destroyed, so in a sense we are immortal, but not in the concious, feel good, exist with awareness kind of way that religious or even spiritual people feel. 

All of that stuff was made so that people can feel okay and feel special when they really aren't.  We are all little snowflakes, but who cares?  Nature sure the fuck doesn't. When you die, you will be totally forgotten by 200 years into the future...so everything we have is fleeting.  It makes one feel ok to think that there is some big entity up there looking out for them.  It allows them to turn their eyes on the reality of the very cold and unforgiving world that is wholly indiferrent to your existence.  As Camus said, life is absurd...it takes one with courage to admit that, to admit that he is not special and that there is no god and to make the best of what time he has on the face of the earth, and that he should do his best to live by principles that he finds to be meaningful (if that means lying to yourself through sprituality, then so be it).

Also, Camus poses this:  The only question that matters is that of suicide.

That is my phiolsophy...because it is obvious that the world, that people and the universe are indifferent to my existence; it is up to me to look that indifference in the face, dead on and scream back at it until I cannot scream any more.  That is the purpose I have assigned for my life.  No god, nothing special nothing after this little window into conciousness. 

[Godfather of Soul]

I believe that evil is the the distance you put yourself from God. Everything around us is material, you know that. Some people have it harder, some people have it easier. We have free will, to believe or to not, and that is where it has brought us. But when it comes down to it the material isn't all important. Poor can still be happy, and rich can be depressed. Love is stronger than anything we face. You can be dying, and still be happy, if you believe in your heart you are suffering for a reason worth suffering for. Its up to us to turn to God, not up to him to turn to us. If we want happyiness, we can have it - its just hard in the world we live in. You have to seperate yourself from it, much like meditation. Personally i prefer to sit out in the countryside on a clear night, in the fresh air and just stare up at the stars.

Ok...I don't.  I believe evil is when you violate an ethical principle that you agree upon at some level and disregard in order to inflict harm on another person.  That is evil.  It is not evil if I violate a principle that YOU think is important or holy.  It is a totally relative concept, one that we may try to universalize, but somehow always manage to come up short on.  The same can be said for what good is.  Again, a totally relative concept, which depends completely on where one happens to be born and the ethical value system that one has committed his/her self to.

Of course we have free will...but only up to a point.  There is a great deal of human behaivor that is driven by instinct.  If you study primate behavior you will see this.  Again, free will is a concept that flies in the face of evolution and gives primacy to some puppet master who can intervene when he sees fit or has us play the game of life for its perverse enjoyment to see what we will do with our so-called free will.

Its up to us to turn to God, not up to him to turn to us.

Now why is this?  Why do I owe god everything and he owes me nothing?  I don't ask for ANYTHING other than proof that s/he/it exists. That's it.  I will do ANYTHING that s/he/it asks if it shows itself to everyone so that I can have it verified and not feel like I am halucinating.  So I will just act as if god is not there and I will do what I think is right.  If s/he/it is a bastard because I didn't fall for all of the human-beings telling me what to think and punishes me, then I don't want what it has to offer.  Straight up.

[Godfather of Soul]

Because we do it for everything. What holds us to the earth? you say gravity. It might not be. Or what is gravity. Prove to me its not an alien magnet planted in the core of the earth 100,000 years ago. You cant. We make up answers to everything. None of it is real, none of it is truth or fact. Its our own lconclusions. We know HOW it happens, but what made it happen?

Well, it might not be, but there is so much HARD EVIDENCE that gravity exists, that it is really hard to argue.  You can say to me (in an irish accent like a leprechaun), "GOS, shoow me grahvitee"...and i'll say (in a flawless californian accent, like the superhuman I am)  "watch this"  and I will throw an object into the air and we can watch it fall together.  I will say, "the force that makes that object fall is called gravity." 

If I ask you to show me god, you will say, (again in a leprechaun voice) "well, look I canna show ya', ya' gonna hafta take me wird fir eet"...

Then I'll say, "do you want more evidence of gravity?"  and you'll say "of carse ah dew" and I'll explain general relativity to you...with equations and everything.  And then you'll say, "ah I cahn say eet weth me ooown eyes"...And i'll say "silly leprechaun, back to the emerald isle with you"...   

Prove to me its not an alien magnet planted in the core of the earth 100,000 years ago.

Show me that it is.  Again, the burden of proof is on you.  If you believe the magnet, then you have to organize proof that it IS there...I can't organize proof that it ISN'T there...but since you claim it is there, then just show me.

I can show you that gravity is a force that pulls things down.  There are tens of thousands of books that can support it.  Literally billions of people and hundreds of billions of animals and plants that experience it, in a faithless way. 

[Godfather of Soul]

We cannot prove ANYTHING
i could say that i am blind and have no hands
but since you cannot see me at this time then you could never prove it
that is the way it is with religion science
because just because a smart person said it, doesnt always mean its true
what is smart?

True, in a sense.  WE can say something is HIGHLY probable, like gravity or the strong and weak nuclear forces or electromagnetism...We don't know the exact particle AND spin of any electron in the universe...and we probably never will...but we can have a HIGH probability of knowing.

Science is based on a hell of a lot more than just "smart people saying things"...it's based on smart people TESTING things over and over and over until they can decipher patterns that support their theories.  You can replciate science, which is why it is reliable...the same cannot be said for the supernatural, which is based on halucination, delusion and faith.

Once again, I ask everyone here, why is it that you do not accept anything on faith accept quite possibly the most important question of your life?  Why?

[[_KaNdii_]]

Once again, I ask everyone here, why is it that you do not accept anything on faith accept quite possibly the most important question of your life?  Why?

I guess it's because accepting that there is no God would completely change their lives. I mean, I know a few people who when they achieve something great or when something good happens to them, the first thing they do is thank God or think that they have been blessed in some way. The same people however, always wonder 'what did I do wrong?' or 'what did I do to deserve this?' when something doesn't go their way.

As individuals, we all have the power or ability to achieve great things, but this also comes with a lot of uncertainty - things don't always go the way we'd like. That's why believing in a god is so appealing. It makes people feel safe and think that regardless of what happens to them, a god will always be by their side and looking out for them. Once you personally accept that there is no god, that's when you also accept that everything that happens to you is a result of chance/coincidence or your own actions. This level of responsibility and uncertainty is frightening for many people. As the saying goes, "Ignorance is bliss"

[OS,JMT,IT]

"Is There A God?"

Absolutly Not.  Don't be Rediculious.

[KillJoy]

Damn, GoS, I don't know where you find the time, but props to you for putting things so well.

[Godfather of Soul]

I have a laptop...so when most people are just watching tv at night, I am watching tv AND writing.  I guess that's how I manage to find the time...  I would rather spend time debating then just sitting around.