Debates on Racism

[Drizzle]

"I am not commenting on race relations in Australia, because I have never been there and know very little about them."

SetuT can tell you all about that.

[Godfather of Soul]

I know, but it seriously upsets me when people who are outsiders and haven't done the RESEARCH needed to make informed comments say things like white people who are poor are just as bad off as black people who are poor.  

I know the reality, I know the stats, and some of the sweeping generalizations, though well intentioned, are way out in left field in terms of accuracy.

[SetuT]

I am not commenting on race relations in Australia, because I have never been there and know very little about them.  However, the few black folk I know who have been there have been treated like shit.  I don't feel I have the right to tell you what it's like for polynesian people in Oz or NZ, but I can imagine that the poverty is WORSE   But you, who CAN'T understand race relations in the US because you haven't lived here or seen it, think you can say what poverty is like for black people...

Do you want me to dig up statistics that will PROVE that black poverty is WORSE than white poverty?  Let's just look at infant mortality...it's HIGHEST amongst black people.  Poor white people aren't offered shit in terms of opportunity, but their skin color is the thing that allows them to have MORE opportunity than a black person of a close social standing will EVER get.  A poor white person will get LESS jail time for the same crimes that a black person committs.   

I am sick of people who don't know the REALITY saying things like poverty is poverty.  BULLSHIT.  Racism exacerbates poverty.  That's like saying poor men and poor women suffer the same.  BULLSHIT.  Poor women suffer more because sexism exacerbates poverty. 

People need to accept the reality of this world.  I am not saying that it's right or fine, but at least I am not lying to myself and saying that it's something that it really isn't.  Same goes for hiphop.  White people can't STAND the fact that they can't be the drivers.  BOO FUCKING HOO.
Posted on: November 27, 2007, 10:08:37 pmGreat, but don't act like you DESERVE anything by being a tourist.

Hey GoS I'm not saying shit isn't fucked up in the hood. I know it totally is. I'm just saying that poor people are poor people and they all get shat on regardless of race. Polynesian people are shit down here, we're all broke. And I know that the US is one of the more racist places in the world, so I can only imagine how shit is...   but Americans hate poor whites too, that's my only point. Many (not all)  of the same structures that exist to oppress blacks also oppress poor whites.

What you're talking about ( I assume)  is statistics, which doesn't take into account individual circumstances. When you're talking black and white in those widesweeping terms, it overlooks imo how opportunities for an upper-class black in the US FAR outweigh opportunities for a 4th generation welfare recipient white. I'm not saying that the black man doesn't have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get where he is (ie the Uncle Tom thing) but still as things stand... he's got it easier than some whites.

I do accept the reality of this world ... and the reality of this world says that we can't hold a kid down in hip hop just cause he's white.

[Drizzle]

GOS's post about white people lacking culture is a generalization, but would explain the New Age Movement in America filled with Caucasians doing yoga, claiming to be Native American shamans, Voudun priest and other traditional non-white religions. Native Americans websites have stories of New Agers showing up at their pow-wows knowing nothing about the culture and claiming to be adopted by a Native American family knowone has heard of. So some western whites do feel they need culture or an alternate culture to their old traditions. I have personally had a few tell me this. That is why America has the New Age Movement.

just google plastic shaman cultural appropriation and many sites will come up

http://www.manataka.org/page23.html

[SetuT]

Alot of that would be because of the normalization of 'white' culture... which is really a result of racism. In this way 'other' cultures are seen as 'culture' whereas white culture is seen as 'just the way it is'. They fucked up though because their reductionist take on culture has seen white folks wanting more .... generally because all they've left themselves is shopping, and hence trying to find cultural expression elsewhere. If these white people could be true to their roots they'd find that they probably had a rich culture but they rejected all that so they could be put under the seemingly superior title of 'white'. The thing is that there is no inherent superiority to this 'white' culture, and as people become more informed they start to realize this. It's really a side effect of white racism but who would've guessed that it'd bite them in the ass?

[Godfather of Soul]

Wow...
I can't believe I'd see the day when I'd see an ignorant post from you GoS. I know that you greatly dislike the system and we're both aware that it provides nothing to benefit blacks and other minorities in America, and that the white skin color is a privilege these days.
However, I take this fairly personally because I am Caucasian and we have a rich culture where I'm from. We don't have hoedowns, we don't have NASCAR, nor do we wakeboard. We have our cultural dances that have been around for centuries, we have our traditions, customs, norms and ways of living.
My people have seen so much bullshit throughout history, that I don't even know where to begin. Numerous empires have conquered Bosnia and the Balkan region. Romans and Turks have reigned over Bosnia so we are no strangers to oppression, or cultural and literal rape. So we won't invite you to wakeboard with us, or listen to country, but we are known for our hospitality and we would offer you Turkish coffee which we call kava, kafa or kahva, and shitloads of our national dishes that most Americans haven't even heard of.

You say whites are privileged..Whiteness is an advantage in America. What kind of whiteness GoS?
I completely agree with you that the social statistics for black people in America are horrible, there is no quetsion about that.
But please remember that in North America, discrimination is not exclusive to non-whites, although the degrees may vary..I still feel my parents being treated as second-class citizens, I see how when I try to cross the border they look at my city of birth and ask me additional questions, I see how they roll their eyes when my mom can't explain to them what she really means because her English isn't up to their standard. Our whiteness hasn't really done shit for us, now has it?
My dad's engineering degree is NOT recognized in Canada, and my mom does the same type of shit that you will see any type of immigrant do: the kind of work that doesn't require a lot of language skill - production labour.

We have a strong connection to our history and culture which is probably why we just recently had a war and why there will be another one again in the future. Generalizations are horrible, the same way someone in another thread pointed that there is no such thing as a single African culture..there is no such thing as a single 'white' culture and you should know better than that.

Your whiteness may not do a great deal for you now, but it will in 2 generations when your cultural dislocation will be greater.  That's how it works.  I am not denying that white people have it bad, especially white immigrants, but what I am denying is that they have it AS BAD as people of color from similar economic conditions.  

There is a dominant white culture in the United States.  It is invisible because it is so ubiquitous.  It is the culture of the news media, of MTV and reality TV.  That is the white culture that I speak of.  If you can see that, then you will understand what I am talking about.  

Hey GoS I'm not saying shit isn't fucked up in the hood. I know it totally is. I'm just saying that poor people are poor people and they all get shat on regardless of race. Polynesian people are shit down here, we're all broke. And I know that the US is one of the more racist places in the world, so I can only imagine how shit is...   but Americans hate poor whites too, that's my only point. Many (not all)  of the same structures that exist to oppress blacks also oppress poor whites.

No, poor people are not poor people.  Poor black people die sooner, make LESS, and have generally worse conditions when compared to nearly every other racial or ethnic group of a similar economic location.  Poor whites get hated on, but poor blacks get hated on by poor whites and everyone else.

What you're talking about ( I assume)  is statistics, which doesn't take into account individual circumstances. When you're talking black and white in those widesweeping terms, it overlooks imo how opportunities for an upper-class black in the US FAR outweigh opportunities for a 4th generation welfare recipient white. I'm not saying that the black man doesn't have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get where he is (ie the Uncle Tom thing) but still as things stand... he's got it easier than some whites.

I have never made a cross-class comparison.  I am saying that when factors of class are controlled for, black people are still worse off than whites of SIMILAR economic location.  Yes, a rich black man has it easier than a coal miner in West Virginia, but that's too easy to point at.  Let's point at the fact that a black man who is rich is WORSE off than a white man of the same economic stratum.  As for stats ignoring individuals, that's nonsense.  Stats are composed of individual experiences which are CONTROLLED for.  If there is no control, then they aren't valid comparisons.  That's basic, introductory research methods.  

I do accept the reality of this world ... and the reality of this world says that we can't hold a kid down in hip hop just cause he's white.

But don't expect people to give cultural space to people who come from another cultural history that exploited and enslaved them.  That's asking a lot.  Black and brown folk have a right to be skeptical and critical of white rappers.  Why?  Because look what happened to Rock and Roll, what happened to Jazz.  Black people aren't giving it all up, and aren't going to allow themselves to be pushed out of artforms that they created.  Sorry, it ain't happening here.  It would take 100 Eminems for that to happen.

[SetuT]

No, poor people are not poor people.  Poor black people die sooner, make LESS, and have generally worse conditions when compared to nearly every other racial or ethnic group of a similar economic location.  Poor whites get hated on, but poor blacks get hated on by poor whites and everyone else.

I'm not really talking about working class, I'm talking more about the bottom of the barrel, welfare recipients. They all make the same don't they? Look I'm not trying to quibble (quibble?) about who's got it worse here I was simply referring to your comment on white folks' "massive amonts of opportunity". From what I've noticed (and I AM an outsider), those at the bottom in the US get fucked on regardless of race. The situation may be technically worse for black folks but that makes sense given the centuries of oppression and persecution your people have suffered. It doesn't though, mean that poor as fuck white people have any opportunities in America. Yes America hates blacks, but it also hates poor people. They're all getting fucked on, and they should find solidarity rather than hating each other (a little utopian I know).

I have never made a cross-class comparison.  I am saying that when factors of class are controlled for, black people are still worse off than whites of SIMILAR economic location.  Yes, a rich black man has it easier than a coal miner in West Virginia, but that's too easy to point at.  Let's point at the fact that a black man who is rich is WORSE off than a white man of the same economic stratum.  As for stats ignoring individuals, that's nonsense.  Stats are composed of individual experiences which are CONTROLLED for.  If there is no control, then they aren't valid comparisons.  That's basic, introductory research methods. 

I agree, but this doesn't refute my initial point which was that some white folks of the scum of the earth in American society .... which is a similar context to what has been put on blacks. Making a broad statement like "Whites have it better in life" overlooks the fact that all these groups have been fucked by the same capitalist structures ( well not strictly the SAME ones but you get what I mean) , and all suffer, with only those who can achieve in a phenomenal manner being given the chance to alleviate their situation.

But don't expect people to give cultural space to people who come from another cultural history that exploited and enslaved them.  That's asking a lot.  Black and brown folk have a right to be skeptical and critical of white rappers.  Why?  Because look what happened to Rock and Roll, what happened to Jazz.  Black people aren't giving it all up, and aren't going to allow themselves to be pushed out of artforms that they created.  Sorry, it ain't happening here.  It would take 100 Eminems for that to happen.

I don't have a problem with this, but hip hop is bigger than Afro America now, even though its roots are there. There are hip hop movements all over the world, pioneers like Afrika Bambata helped to achieve this. All over the world people are using hip hop as a way to express their ideas on things like oppression, hypocrisy, and other elements of life which give a continuity to hip hop. I actually have found it kinda lame how this forum is so US-oriented in the sense that there is a shitload of awesome stuff coming out from all over the world, and this is not a diss to the hip hop movement ... if anything it's making it stronger.

[Godfather of Soul]

The US is still the Mecca for hip hop, drives global hip hop and will for the rest of my life.  At the center of all of that is the black experience in the United States.  That's an irrefutable fact.  Global hip hop is an emulation and variant of shit that is going down here.  That is why the focus is primarily on the US.  This is where it was started, this is where the trends are made and this is where it will die first, if it ever does.

[SetuT]

I don't deny that the US is the Mecca for hip hop, but the same could be said for many facets of popular culture.

The last few years I've found alot of the stuff coming out of the US boring, whereas the UK, and South America have been doing some crazy shit ... the mixing of hip hop and electronica is an example. Plus I find NZ and some Australian hip hop alot more accessible to me because of the content ... which makes sense I guess.

[Theonlyone]

The US is still the Mecca for hip hop, drives global hip hop and will for the rest of my life.  At the center of all of that is the black experience in the United States.  That's an irrefutable fact.  Global hip hop is an emulation and variant of shit that is going down here.  That is why the focus is primarily on the US.  This is where it was started, this is where the trends are made and this is where it will die first, if it ever does.

so, you prefer hip hop to be a non-white area? that only non whites can listen, participate, support? because that it is what you are saying. And GoS, i never said i wanted to "drive" the culture. I just want a place where my talents can be used properly. I mean, what youre saying is that, a black person, growing up in a middle class neighborhood, nice life, but he likes rock and roll, hates anything to do with rap (thinks its noisy and dumb) and you also have a white person who grew up in semi-lower class standards, and loves raps. He writes, he records, he listens. Now, youre telling me the black person i mentioned earlier has more of a right to be there, even tho he's turned his back on his own culture? while the white kid who has experienced it from day one is trying to embrace something he loves?

now get it right, im not saying let whites in to mean every white person should sing gangster rap, but i know enough about what i see in everyday life to make songs to help people and to describe my probs and those of others around me.

another thing, if youre good, you should be accepted, hands down. If youre whack, you should be told off...i mean, shit, if someones a good white rapper, are you seriously gonna tell them to their face GoS that they dont belong here, no matter how good they are?

[Bob]

I cannot comment on the conditions in America, however in Canada the situation is a little different. While we don't have a large black population here, we do have a large South Asian and Asian populations here.

Well, Canada isn't Vancouver. Toronto does have a large black population. Similarly, black migrants entered Canada (highly pronounced in Manitoba) and especially Toronto well before most minorities including Asians. The institutions applied the US racial model in order to restrict black development, which even included direct force in Nova Scotia.

Similarly, we can use Native Canadian as group that represents the extreme as blacks, Hispanics and Natives do in US. The institution strongly discriminates against those of aboriginal descent.

I suppose we had a misunderstanding on what you meant by 'white'. I'm aware of the dominant white culture and the MTV phenomenon, which is probably one of the reasons why I haven't watched TV in months. I'm sick of the types of shows that they direct at white or black America, or different age groups and genders, but this is another discussion altogether.

By white, we're suggesting the institutions that promote white fitness. The concept of white privilege exists in Canada as well.

It has nothing to do with Bosnian culture, but rather institution that can include Bosnians if they choose to promote the system. In contrast, an Aboriginal, Grenadian or South Korean is excluded.

I also agree that in a few generations, my 'whiteness' (or my kids', since I may  well be dead) will be beneficial, however I think it will take longer than expected in my future immediate family since I have strong ties to my own ethnicity or ethnic cultures in general meaning that my children will have those elements in their upbringing as well.

Anita, whiteness has a clear advantage in Toronto. Why are the negative end of disparity predominantly non-white despite the fact that poor whites are a majority?

Take socio-economic status:

Crime. Committed and prisons are overrepresented mainly by people of colour.

Education. Drop out rate for black Caribbeans are 40%. Only 6% attain over 70%.

Note: This is the case, even though the majority of poor in Toronto (poverty), single mother families, children born out of wedlock are white. IOW, there is no causality between the three variables vs. whiteness.

Media. People of colour, especially Aboriginals and Black Canadians are represented most negatively. The former are viewed as complained while the latter are criminal. This has a huge affect on both population. Asians are not negatively in this manner, because they do not apply under this dynamic. Anyway, to be white is normal.

Standard of living. Conditions in the reserves amongst the worse in Canada. To be born, and live in a reserves automatically places a higher alcoholism, homicide, suicide and victimization rate on your side.

Poverty in Toronto is highly racialized. The poorest groups in Toronto tend to be Afghan, Bengali, and Somali. This is where we see white privilege straight up. The same

This is not to say that I place some sort of supremacy upon my own culture, I am simply pointing that I believe that its survival is important, as I recall you a while back saying that you would teach your children certain core beliefs that you have which is a natural thing to do.

To deny that institutions do not favour whites would be a stretch, however. All people, regardless of ethnic groups attempt to maximize their fitness. This is why no academic literature suggests that the disparity is due to inherent racial deficiencies, but rather to due to institutional bias.

More information regarding white privilege in Canada.

[murdaLicious]

You say whites are privileged..Whiteness is an advantage in America. What kind of whiteness GoS?
I completely agree with you that the social statistics for black people in America are horrible, there is no quetsion about that.
But please remember that in North America, discrimination is not exclusive to non-whites, although the degrees may vary..I still feel my parents being treated as second-class citizens, I see how when I try to cross the border they look at my city of birth and ask me additional questions, I see how they roll their eyes when my mom can't explain to them what she really means because her English isn't up to their standard. Our whiteness hasn't really done shit for us, now has it?

But the discrimination your family faces has not as much to do with your skin color as your immigration status.  In a generation, you will be white.  Your immigrant status will disappear, your whole family will speak without an accent, and the accompanying discrimination will fade greatly (unless someone knows you are of bosnian heritage and really hates bosnians for some reason).  The same cannot be said for blacks. 

[Bob]

I agree with you here as well, but I would like to point out that although whites do have more privileges than blacks or other minorities, comparative to the ruling elite or better-off Canadians (or Americans, or whoever), the underprivileged are in the lowest strata of our society, and there are not many options for them to advance and you must know this if you look at our taxation brackets, and what happens to the poor when their income increases by even just a teeny bit. I will stress again, it is easier for a white person to take the opportunity of upward mobility, however a single mother with 2 children probably doesn't have much of a chance since the system will overtax her, and then go out to a press conference and try to tell Canadians that all the child benefits that they give are actually helping much to alleviate poverty.

Well the poor in Canada are mainly white, but that doesn't mean they don't have benefits. To have white skin decreases chances of dropping out of school, incarceration, victimization et al. The poor with white skin are far more privileged than the coloured counterpart. It are the communities who have a direct history with Eurocentrism, i.e. Aboriginals and

As for young black men having such high drop out rates, could we discuss more on that, and would anyone post some literature on that? It is a cruel reality, and this low graduation rate will prevent these young men from having well-paying jobs which is most likely going to result in a ridiculous job that will further feed the poverty cycle common in the ghettos, or so I'm told.

Here's some Link. You can work from here, because at the moment, I do not have the actual literature available.

Not that I require it anyways. To realize that there is a disparity. We can isolate the source, but venturing into biology. There are no psycho-physiological differences between blacks and whites. Nor does poverty play a huge role (i.e. whites are a majority), family setup (single-mother families that are white outnumber black counterpart), and what not. The only source available is environment. In sum, it's due to Eurocentrism.

I believe it was the segregated school posts where there was discussion about black males and high drop out rates. Someone pointed out that the school programs are Eurocentric and that black students are not interested in the material? Correct me if I'm wrong, I will reread the thread after my lecture today. And amen to the lack of interest, out of all the world literature, and a fairly rich literary tradition in Canada, why the fuck are we still forced to learn about BRITISH literature, like there is no alternative to it? And how many more students will learn the watered down version of the British invasion of North America and what really happened?

Canada is a crappy country anyways, but that's a different point. There is no literature suggesting there is some inherent deficiencies being black, and instead points out to the Eurocentric institutions. We've this earlier, hell its going in parallel with multiple different users, who tend to be fixated with the Eurocentric tilt. Tiring I must say, but do read that thread.

In the ends it Eurocentrism. Eurocentrism. Eurocentrism. This is an extremely reinforced hypothesis that has dominated white studies programmes in the US and the West.

[Off topic, but worthy of discussion in the future; I remember when I was in grade 9 and we were learning Canadian history - they made it look like the British and the French came in, the Natives got a little bit mad, and after they got so sick the Natives showed them how to battle scurvy, then they became friends and agreed that the new country will be called Canada and that everything was fine and lovely.]

What else do you expect in a totalitarian state? Then the story continues on with aboriginals living a tax-free if they earn at least 90% in reserves that make third world nations more pleasant.

This is true. Well maybe my parents won't ever lose the accent, I probably won't either (it's not particularly strong, but it's there) however the babies are a different story. So I suppose in MY lifetime, things will be a little different for my immediate family now, which is why I said I won't have the privilege since I have strong non-Anglo cultural ties, however my future immediate family will probably be able to get those benefits of being priviledged whites

Well, you're less likely to be incarcerated or victimized. The fact that I may look "black" to some, may end being ticket to hell. This isn't a reality whites fact. It's far worse for aboriginals, where it seems like our institutions are encouraging white men to rape and murder Aboriginal women. How so? They ignore the case.

[Drizzle]

so, you prefer hip hop to be a non-white area? that only non whites can listen, participate, support? because that it is what you are saying. And GoS, i never said i wanted to "drive" the culture. I just want a place where my talents can be used properly. I mean, what youre saying is that, a black person, growing up in a middle class neighborhood, nice life, but he likes rock and roll, hates anything to do with rap (thinks its noisy and dumb) and you also have a white person who grew up in semi-lower class standards, and loves raps. He writes, he records, he listens. Now, youre telling me the black person i mentioned earlier has more of a right to be there, even tho he's turned his back on his own culture? while the white kid who has experienced it from day one is trying to embrace something he loves?

now get it right, im not saying let whites in to mean every white person should sing gangster rap, but i know enough about what i see in everyday life to make songs to help people and to describe my probs and those of others around me.

another thing, if youre good, you should be accepted, hands down. If youre whack, you should be told off...i mean, shit, if someones a good white rapper, are you seriously gonna tell them to their face GoS that they dont belong here, no matter how good they are?

Exactly, its like saying Condoleezza Rice is more hip-hop than say... Diabolic, Ill Bill, or Vinnie Paz.

[Bob]

Exactly, its like saying Condoleezza Rice is more hip-hop than say... Diabolic, Ill Bill, or Vinnie Paz.

These are exceptions. Most urban centres dealing with extreme poverty are predominantly black, brown, and red despite being minorities. Whites are nearly non-existent.

The fact is most whites are overwhelmingly mobile. Therefore Hip Hop cannot address whites as a group. If those in the inner-city who want to be 'white' want to be Hip Hop then they need to disassociate themselves from whiteness. They are not even really benefiting.

Remember race is a pseudo-scientific construct. There are no biological races. It doesn't exist, but to associate with whiteness is what strengthens Eurocentric institutions. To dissociate from whiteness is a very easy thing to do. Biology is on your side and academic literature have loads of evidence unravelling Eurocentrism.

Here are some tips to battle Racism - dissociate from whiteness:

Cop Watch Program

[...]These are people who look white, and they walk around on the street with big signs saying "Cop Watch." Or they drive around in a well-marked car, targeting neighborhoods where the police are known for stopping black people and roughing them up or catching them on Saturday night as they come out of the joints. And they're there with a video camera, taking notes and observing the police.

Now this is a perfectly legal program; these people are within their rights to observe public officials. And yet it's clear that this kind of program drives the cops c-raz_y. They do not wish to be scrutinized or observed in their malfeasance. It seems to me that people doing this sort of thing are, in a sense, using the protection of the white skin, but -rejecting it. Because in undertaking this kind of a program it's clear that they're placing themselves outside of the protection of the white skin. They're saying to the cops, and to the society in general: We are not on your side, and, moreover, we intend to hold you accountable.

I think something like this, people taking this kind of action--it's not violent, it's not even illegal--is disrupting the way the police and the court system normally function: to channel black folk into prison and white folk off to college, or at least to a tolerable situation in the world. And there's a need to think of some kinds of analogies that might apply in other spheres of society.

It seems to me that the fundamental point of it is that people who look white have to go beyond merely sympathizing with the sufferings of people of color; they have to identify with them. If they do that, then we can talk about breaking apart the scene.

How to react to Racist remarks:

A: Let me give you an example. Every person who looks white in this country has heard race jokes, anti-black jokes--a hell of a lot of them. I'm speaking now of people who do not consider themselves bigots. I'm talking about the majority of the people reading this interview, and the majority of my friends. Most of the time, we don't say anything. Somebody makes some crack about one of them, and we say nothing. In our silence, we're engaging in a process of white bonding. We're validating that experience. We don't have to go along; we just have to keep quiet about it.

An alternative response is the liberal approach. The response is a lecture: prejudice is wrong, and _you shouldn't talk that way about them. That's sympathy. It's beyond neutrality. It's an expression of sympathy, but it's not yet an identification.

A third way, which would get my vote, would be to respond to the person by saying: Oh, you probably said that because you think I'm white; that's a mistake that people often make because I look white. That's a step beyond sympathy. That's already an identification. As I said to one guy: What if you responded to slurs against black people as if they were directed against your mother? How would you respond then? Just apply that same rule to people talking about black folks and you will find that you've gone beyond sympathy--you've reached the point of identification.

What you might also discover in that situation is that you find yourself outside of the white club. If you do this regularly and consistently, you will find yourself outside of the privileges of whiteness. That's what I mean by "reverse oreos": people who look white but are not white. I would suggest that when there comes into being a critical mass of these people in the United States, the white race itself will self-destruct.

Link

[ineed<3]

so basically whites are supposed to be racist to be accepted into their own community?
Posted on: November 28, 2007, 02:11:37 pmit's funny, if you go to a group of white people and ask if they're racist, they'll be like no no no!

and then u ask y do u guys not like that dude there...will they say he's a jerk then?

[Bob]

so basically whites are supposed to be racist to be accepted into their own community?

Yes. That is a fact. Its been noted by scholars before this forum was created.

If I was a white person and did not want to see segregation: I would dissociate from whiteness. Seriously are you gals and guys really that handicapped? It is possible for those who face negative pressures to access high economic segments. Now, can't most 'whites' who belong to the middle class do the same.

I may be over exaggerating capability, but there is no need to support these institutions. Re-read my prior post:

Cop Watch Program

[...]These are people who look white, and they walk around on the street with big signs saying "Cop Watch." Or they drive around in a well-marked car, targeting neighborhoods where the police are known for stopping black people and roughing them up or catching them on Saturday night as they come out of the joints. And they're there with a video camera, taking notes and observing the police.

Now this is a perfectly legal program; these people are within their rights to observe public officials. And yet it's clear that this kind of program drives the cops c-raz_y. They do not wish to be scrutinized or observed in their malfeasance. It seems to me that people doing this sort of thing are, in a sense, using the protection of the white skin, but -rejecting it. Because in undertaking this kind of a program it's clear that they're placing themselves outside of the protection of the white skin. They're saying to the cops, and to the society in general: We are not on your side, and, moreover, we intend to hold you accountable.

Dealing with racist remarks

A third way, which would get my vote, would be to respond to the person by saying: Oh, you probably said that because you think I'm white; that's a mistake that people often make because I look white. That's a step beyond sympathy. That's already an identification. As I said to one guy: What if you responded to slurs against black people as if they were directed against your mother? How would you respond then? Just apply that same rule to people talking about black folks and you will find that you've gone beyond sympathy--you've reached the point of identification.

[San Patricio]

Bob that Race traitor argument was AMAZING by the way

[Bob]

Well, the these multiple threads have thoroughly debunked and now we reach the main question: Can whites disassociate themselves from whiteness?

[Godfather of Soul]

so, you prefer hip hop to be a non-white area? that only non whites can listen, participate, support? because that it is what you are saying. And GoS, i never said i wanted to "drive" the culture. I just want a place where my talents can be used properly. I mean, what youre saying is that, a black person, growing up in a middle class neighborhood, nice life, but he likes rock and roll, hates anything to do with rap (thinks its noisy and dumb) and you also have a white person who grew up in semi-lower class standards, and loves raps. He writes, he records, he listens. Now, youre telling me the black person i mentioned earlier has more of a right to be there, even tho he's turned his back on his own culture? while the white kid who has experienced it from day one is trying to embrace something he loves?

now get it right, im not saying let whites in to mean every white person should sing gangster rap, but i know enough about what i see in everyday life to make songs to help people and to describe my probs and those of others around me.

another thing, if youre good, you should be accepted, hands down. If youre whack, you should be told off...i mean, shit, if someones a good white rapper, are you seriously gonna tell them to their face GoS that they dont belong here, no matter how good they are?

I am talking about a black kid in the burbs who is into rap has more of a claim to it than a white kid in the burbs who is into rap.  I am also saying that a black kid who is from the burbs and likes rap probably has a stronger connection, in terms of family and history, to hip hop than a white kid from a lower class background.  This is an issue of history and connection with the core of hip-hop, which is still BLACK.  As much as all of you UN acting cats like to think that the core of hiphop is something else, it is still BLACK. 

But again, you guys are racing to find exceptions instead of acknowledging the reality of the situation.  Bringing Condaleeza into the discussion is stupid.  Let's talk about the white kids who want to be a part of hip hop in a way that black people are a part of hip hop.  That is what this whole conversation is about.  You WANT to belong to a culture that isn't based in your history or your experience, or that of your ancestors.  You can be a TOURIST to it, but it can't ever fully be yours.  Black people somehow magically accept this for things like Country music.  They accept that they will be novelties if they pursue it.  White rappers will always be novelties, because the music and culture, isn't based on their history and their collective history.