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Author Topic: What we see is there because we think is there?  (Read 1252 times)
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Ado
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cause i don't give a make love


« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2007, 12:09:04 PM »

i've always thought about this philosophy, just because it's really thought provoking.
i dont believe in it, its interesting though
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 06:02:22 am
Heres another one, (this dependent on my first question)
Theres two guys they're standing next to each in front of a building. One of them thinks the building is the other guy thinks it isn't there so that guy sees is empty lot so he walks there. What will the other guy see (the other person who thinks the building is there)?

i dont think you can see it that way
you need to look at it as if its you

for example, there's you and another guy
you see the building, but the other guy doesnt
but since its you, you've thought up the building, and the guy
i think this is how it is at least
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2007, 01:34:53 PM »

my point exactly.
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 01:18:00 pm
if thats just our eyes could u image what our other senses say whats there and whats not?
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2007, 03:33:23 PM »

You seriously need to stop watching the matrix while baked man.
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2007, 03:35:56 PM »

If someone you know dies, do you disappear? No. So they didn't just think you up, and vise versa.
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2007, 03:48:34 PM »

If someone you know dies, do you disappear? No. So they didn't just think you up, and vise versa.

That doesn't disprove the idea. Because you are still seeing everything through your own eyes.

Freemind, this philosophy isn't to be taken literally... It is just skeptism, or Epistemology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2007, 04:03:23 PM »

That doesn't disprove the idea. Because you are still seeing everything through your own eyes.

Freemind, this philosophy isn't to be taken literally... It is just skeptism, or Epistemology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

So thats like saying the universe centers around you. When you die the universe moves on. All your friends won't fade way. Thats like saying the universe revolves around the earth. Sorry, your not that important.
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2007, 04:12:18 PM »

So thats like saying the universe centers around you. When you die the universe moves on. All your friends won't fade way. Thats like saying the universe revolves around the earth. Sorry, your not that important.

Yes, it is exactly that. [edit] Actually no, because even the universe's existence is open to scrutiny. The point is to disprove it... Which I think is impossible.

The conclusion I make from Descartes is that knowledge can be entirely 'proven'. Nothing can.

His philosophy is still open to be 'true', but that's not what the point of it is.
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2007, 04:28:33 PM »

For this to be true you have to assume the universe centers around you which is rediculouse. You are a part of the universe, not the source. Like I said when you die people you know will still be here, which is a more reasonable assumption than everyone you know will fade away. What makes you more special than other people that have died. Did everything they know disappear? No. So I will assume the same for everyone else.
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2007, 04:30:57 PM »

^ Exactly no one here is special just like all that have died before us, you can even take this into the animal kindom because where about as special as them.
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2007, 05:07:06 PM »

For this to be true you have to assume the universe centers around you which is rediculouse. You are a part of the universe, not the source. Like I said when you die people you know will still be here, which is a more reasonable assumption than everyone you know will fade away. What makes you more special than other people that have died. Did everything they know disappear? No. So I will assume the same for everyone else.

That's fair enough, but you haven't disproved the thought, which is JUST a method of thought. You do well in explaining what we already 'know', but you are taking it too literally.

You say it is ridiculous but haven't really explained why...


Can you show that there is a higher level of knowledge, or even knowledge of the same platform than that of knowing you exist?

The way to approach this is to think of it as a philosophy of knowledge... OK so we've found that we are part of the universe, but we found that using a METHOD of thought, and it doesn't exist outside of our senses, which are dearest to us.

Our method of scientific thought or rationality maybe seriously flawed. Who are we to know? We are just using the best method to our ability.

Is there a universal rationality?

IMO, thinking that we have the method of discovery all worked out is also homocentric.

These are all questions that Descartes is inspiring here.
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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2007, 05:54:39 PM »

That's fair enough, but you haven't disproved the thought, which is JUST a method of thought. You do well in explaining what we already 'know', but you are taking it too literally.

You say it is ridiculous but haven't really explained why...


Can you show that there is a higher level of knowledge, or even knowledge of the same platform than that of knowing you exist?

The way to approach this is to think of it as a philosophy of knowledge... OK so we've found that we are part of the universe, but we found that using a METHOD of thought, and it doesn't exist outside of our senses, which are dearest to us.

Our method of scientific thought or rationality maybe seriously flawed. Who are we to know? We are just using the best method to our ability.

Is there a universal rationality?

IMO, thinking that we have the method of discovery all worked out is also homocentric.

These are all questions that Descartes is inspiring here.

I have clearly explained why. To say that YOU just simply dreamed up the universe YOU have to say you are the source, and knowone else is. You are saying it can't be disproven because YOU see thing through YOUR perspective, so when you die, you wouldn' know if it was a dream or not and it would just loop around. So you have are basicly saying you are the source of the universe based on this logic, and nobody else before or after you is. Which is rediculouse.

You are basicly saying if someone else other than you dies the universe moves on, but if you die all of a sudden it stops or loops back around? And I can't prove you wrong because you won't be able to know if it was your dream or not after you die because its your perspective? That makes ot safe to asume I am just another part of YOUR dream. When you die I just fade away? Thats arrogent, stupid, and has no logic. You might as well call yourself the godhead.

^ you got me repeating myself with your circular logic


Posted on: December 16, 2007, 05:30:38 pm
That's fair enough, but you haven't disproved the thought, which is JUST a method of thought. You do well in explaining what we already 'know', but you are taking it too literally.

This logic is so irritating.

"Disprove that a tiny invisble unicorn lives in my house. Oh wait. You can't. So that makes you wrong."

That is idiotic and childish.
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 05:38:58 pm
Quote
Rene Descartes' famous metaphysical argument "I think, therefore I am" is sometimes accused of begging the question because the premise ("I think") appears to assume the conclusion ("I am").

Just because YOU think doesnt mean YOU, and everything else IS. Cause when you die, the world keeps spinning. Get over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_logic
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2007, 06:13:58 PM »


"Disprove that a tiny invisble unicorn lives in my house. Oh wait. You can't. So that makes you wrong."

That is idiotic and childish.

If you aren't interested in the theory of knowledge then why enter the discussion?

You keep using the directive 'your', as if I actually believe this. I do not. I'm just acting as a middle-man.
But the logic is not ridiculous. You are yet to disprove the logic. You just keep preferring to insult it or become emotionally effected by it.

The argument though, is sound.

- I am an internal being.
- Therefore, I can not answer for what is external.

Yes, of course you can not disprove it. I didn't expect you to.

But what you are not doing is explaining why it is ridiculous. You concluded that it is circular logic... Well congratulations, I pointed that out in my first or second post.

What you are subtly assuming, though, I presume, is that the current human method of aquiring knowledge is infallable. That is my only answer for you claiming the argument is ridiculous.

The reason you are repeating yourself is because you are still taking it literally, which I advised not to.
Your analogy is a result of this... Noone is saying anyone is wrong. Put that strawman away.

Again, it is a critic of knowledge. Do not take it anymore further than that.
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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2007, 06:20:06 PM »

If you aren't interested in the theory of knowledge then why enter the discussion?

You keep using the directive 'your', as if I actually believe this. I do not. I'm just acting as a middle-man.
But the logic is not ridiculous. You are yet to disprove the logic. You just keep preferring to insult it or become emotionally effected by it.

The argument though, is sound.

- I am an internal being.
- Therefore, I can not answer for what is external.

Yes, of course you can not disprove it. I didn't expect you to.

But what you are not doing is explaining why it is ridiculous. You concluded that it is circular logic... Well congratulations, I pointed that out in my first or second post.

What you are subtly assuming, though, I presume, is that the current human method of aquiring knowledge is infallable. That is my only answer for you claiming the argument is ridiculous.

The reason you are repeating yourself is because you are still taking it literally, which I advised not to.
Your analogy is a result of this... Noone is saying anyone is wrong. Put that strawman away.

Again, it is a critic of knowledge. Do not take it anymore further than that.

Your right, I thought you meant it literally.

The poster of the topic was taking it literally.
"What we see is there because we think is there? "

People began questioning their existence. Rene Descartes was saying him doubting his existence was proof of his existence, NOT his thoughts effecting anything. My thoughts are not generating the universe, because that is rediculouse. Case closed.
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2007, 06:24:50 PM »

Rene Descartes was saying him doubting his existence was proof of his existence, NOT his thoughts effecting anything. My thoughts are not generating the universe, beacause that is rediculouse. Case closed.

[re-opens case]
That is where the argument leads... Because he can prove his own existence, but can he speak for yours?

Descartes concludes that he can be certain that he exists because he thinks. But in what form? He perceives his body through the use of the senses; however, these have previously been proven unreliable. So Descartes concludes that the only indubitable knowledge is that he is a thinking thing. Thinking is his essence as it is the only thing about him that cannot be doubted. Descartes defines "thought" (cogitatio) as "what happens in me such that I am immediately conscious of it, insofar as I am conscious of it". Thinking is thus every activity of a person of which he is immediately conscious.

To further demonstrate the limitations of the senses, Descartes proceeds with what is known as the Wax Argument. He considers a piece of wax: his senses inform him that it has certain characteristics, such as shape, texture, size, color, smell, and so forth. When he brings the wax towards a flame, these characteristics change completely. However, it seems that it is still the same thing: it is still a piece of wax, even though the data of the senses inform him that all of its characteristics are different. Therefore, in order to properly grasp the nature of the wax, he cannot use the senses: he must use his mind. Descartes concludes:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes#Philosophical_work
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2007, 06:36:10 PM »

[re-opens case]
That is where the argument leads... Because he can prove his own existence, but can he speak for yours?

Of course he can! Let me put it this way. If I were to meet anyone, I think they would have sufficient evidence of my existence and therefore be able to prove I existed. There is nothing metaphysical about that. Of course he can speak of my existence. When he said that statement he meant for all mankind. Cause some super metaphysical wanabe philosophers were trying to say we didn't exist, (or we were just a dream). So he was saying you doubting your existence is proof you exist. He's not just speaking for himself. He is saying you, me and everything else that exist. He is NOT saying his thoughts generate anything.
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2007, 06:49:38 PM »

Of course he can! Let me put it this way. If I were to meet anyone, I think they would have sufficient evidence of my existence and therefore be able to prove I existed. There is nothing metaphysical about that. Of course he can speak of my existence. When he said that statement he meant for all mankind. Cause some super metaphysical wanabe philosophers were trying to say we didn't exist, (or we were just a dream). So he was saying you doubting your existence is proof you exist. He's not just speaking for himself. He is saying you, me and everything else that exist. He is NOT saying his thoughts generate anything.

Then if I put your logic, and his logic, together, Descartes is now inside of your mind. In the minds of all mankind.
And why not animals?
Why not wax?


Consider the wax argument.
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 06:41:38 pm
Also: "Thinking is his (not anyone else's - follow this deductively) essence as it is the only thing about him (not you, me, mankind, or wax) that cannot be doubted."
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 06:46:28 pm
Using deductive logic, there lies a logical possibility that the world is generated by thought.
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2007, 06:51:27 PM »


Then if I put your logic, and his logic, together, Descartes is now inside of your mind. In the minds of all mankind.
And why not animals?
Why not wax?


Consider the wax argument.
Posted on: December 16, 2007, 06:41:38 pm
Also: "Thinking is his (not anyone else's - follow this deductively) essence as it is the only thing about him (not you, me, mankind, or wax) that cannot be doubted."

He was simpily showing that the mind is more reliable than the senses, not that he is inside the mind of wax. He is showing that the wax can go through all types of changes to his senses as, liquid, solid, smell, shape, but it is still wax, and it take is mind to know that.
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2007, 07:03:07 PM »

He was simpily showing that the mind is more reliable than the senses, not that he is inside the mind of wax. He is showing that the wax can go through all types of changes to his senses as, liquid, solid, smell, shape, but it is still wax, and it take is mind to know that.

But in the meantime, his mind is his only assurance. Not what goes through his mind. It is the fact that he has a mind.

Everything else is not indubitable knowledge.
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2007, 07:06:12 PM »

Thats what I said here.
Your right, I thought you meant it literally.

The poster of the topic was taking it literally.
"What we see is there because we think is there? "

People began questioning their existence. Rene Descartes was saying him doubting his existence was proof of his existence, NOT his thoughts effecting anything. My thoughts are not generating the universe, because that is rediculouse. Case closed.
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2007, 07:10:20 PM »

Ah yes, but then you went on to say that it is proof of everyone else's existence Tongue
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Mobile-friendly version Immortal Technique Biography

Born Felipe Andres Coronel on the 19th of February 1978, hip-hop artist Immortal Technique is a controversial figure in the U.S. His songs speak of the need for social justice and equality among all races, with special emphasis on the people of color or Latin Americans, but they also cover topics such as the fight against unfair imprisonments or militarism and many others.

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In this regard, it is almost impossible to talk about rap music but not discuss the golden age of rap. This was the era from the late 1980s to the mid 1990s when rap grew at an astounding rate fueled by the creative contributions of many artists from all over the continental United States and in many parts of the world. The primary trait of the Golden Age or Rap was that it was an almost unbroken wave of transformative music with every single pushing the boundaries of the genre. From this age and in the succeeding Gansta Rap age came names like Run-D.M.C., Dr. Dre, Ice T, MC Hammer, The Wu-tang Clan, Snoop Dogg, and The Notorious B.I.G. among others. The list of names can virtually fill a Sharepoint Hive without any problems.

According to social studies published in 2005, teenagers and children are more familiar with hip-hop and rap music more than any other musical genre. Up to 65% of all children from ages 8 to 18 hear hip-hop music on a daily basis, making it their routinary keratin hair treatment session, almost to the point that it has become an intrinsic part of their lives. With the diversification of the genre to include the more stylish R&B or rhythm and blues, it is not difficult to explain how rap music has continued to pervade radio station, TV and movie song line-ups. The marriage of rap and jazz which paved the way for R&B is itself a phenomenon that warrants all sorts of social analysis.

And with its very strong following, it is safe to say that rap music is here to stay. Years from now, when you open your TV on a bright Saturday morning, there’s a big chance you would be watching the next stage in the evolution of rap music, and there’s an even better chance you would be dancing or singing to that tune.

Immortal Technique Rapper Biography

Immortal technique is the stage name for which rapper Felipe Andres Coronel is popularly known. His lyrics characterized by its unique mixture of socialist commentary of social class hierarchy, religion, wealth, poverty to contemporary issues touching on governmental and institutional racism. Perhaps you may have come across information about this popular icon as you undertake research for that mba online, or for whatever course you are undertaking, be it bachelors in criminal justice, performing arts degree, governance systems, online nurse practitioner programs, history, or any other course for which you have to do online research.

The rapper was born on the 19th day of February 1978 in Lima, Peru. During the internal conflicts that took place in their country at the time, his parents migrated to Harlem, New York. Probably, in the process of migration to the country, they may have used boats at least once in the journey. Like many American teenagers, the rapper was engaged in various acts against the law that led to his arrest several times, which in one his public interviews admitted that they were selfish and at best childish acts. After completing his incarceration terms, he took up a political science course in a bid to mend his seemingly torn life, while living with his father.

After completing his studies, he was not lucky enough to secure a job in his field of study owing to the unemployment situation prevailing in the entire United States. Like many American fresh graduates who take up it jobs, nursing jobs, waiter and nursing jobs among many other common jobs that may not necessarily need a specialist, he took up a working in a restaurant to earn a buck from which he could live on.

Through his deep interest in championing for equality between the elite and the under privileged in society, and being not a Mesothelioma Lawyer, the rapper begun his music career basing his lyrics on such issues as injustice, exploitation and mistreatment of the poor. This is captured clearly in his desire to keep control over his production, since he strongly believes that in the music industry, the producers normally make a large profit while the artist for who credit belongs, normally end ups earning peanut amounts at the end of the day.

His popular sediments are captured in his albums that include the revolutionary, both volume one and two, and the 3rd world and the middle passage album. the rapper is increasingly involved in prison visits and working with migrant rights activists, though which he speaks to youths and the unprivileged in the society trazer amor de volta. His investments are largely in farmland in Latin America, which like soweto properties is an unpopular investment option for many celebrity figures. His advice to the youth is not much on taking up an aacsb online mba or an online criminal justice degree, but rather it is based on exploiting ones talents and living soberly within the law.

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