Unexpected Ignorance

[havoc1995]

In listening to IT's message, I didn't expect to find the ignorance that I do on his fan site. . .  we got people on here makin threads talkin bout white's CAN'T be anti-racist.  Do you listen to anything he says?

From The Poverty of Philosophy:

"As different as we have been taught to look at each other by colonial society, we are in the same struggle and until we realize that, we'll be fighting for scraps from the table of a system that has kept us subservient instead of being self-determined.  And that's why we have no control. . .  My enemy is not the average white man, it's not the kid down the block or the kids I see on the street; my enemy is the white man I don't see: the people in the white house, the corporate monopoly owners, fake liberal politicians those are my enemies. . .  In fact, I have more in common with most working and middle-class white people than I do with most rich black and Latino people.  As much as racism bleeds America, we need to understand that classism is the real issue.  Many of us are in the same boat and it's sinking, while these bougie Mother-Fuckers ride on a luxury liner, and as long as we keep fighting over kicking people out of the little boat we're all in, we're gonna miss an opportunity to gain a better standard of living as a whole. "

Go read A People's History of the United States.

[fLow]

Where is the thread you are talking about?

[JC]

I am not sure I remember seeing a thread but both those points have been made. And it is also often argued that racism is a greater issue than classism, this being correct or not depends on the situation.

[piercehawkeye45]

Where is the thread you are talking about?

Mine maybe?\

Or this one?
http://www.immortal-technique.com/forum/index.php/topic,7034.0.html

[JC]

Mine maybe?

Whats the link?

[piercehawkeye45]

http://www.immortal-technique.com/forum/index.php/topic,7336.0.html

[havoc1995]

Yeah this would be the one I was talkin bout:

hxxp: www. immortal-technique. com/forum/index. php/topic,7034. 0. html

There's a fair amount of the same kind of thing on IT youtube videos in the comments. 

Sorry if the point has been made, I didn't so much see a thread on the first page of that sort.  Man, wasn't expectin so many replies so quickly.

I try to explain to my friends the history of racism in the U. S.  and how it's used as a tool by the rich to keep the middle/lower classes in check.  A People's History was really the first book I read that opened my eyes to that. 

My intent wasn't to be spiteful, I just wanna make that clear.  Ignorance isn't meant as an inflamatory word, rather that people don't realize the greater picture. . .  yet.
Posted on: February 03, 2008, 10:24:31 am

I am not sure I remember seeing a thread but both those points have been made.  And it is also often argued that racism is a greater issue than classism, this being correct or not depends on the situation. 

I think that racism is the problem that is easier to see, but to really solve that I think we need to open people's eyes to the fact that racism hurts those who perpetuate it.  By us bein racist, we alienate those who are our natural allies.  In the early slave days white servants and African slaves rebelled together and often ran away from the plantations together. . .  they were a real threat to the powers that be, so racism was injected into poor white culture to keep them and the blacks in check.

Racism is more obvious and should be fought, but the way to get rid of it for good is to educate poor people everywhere of the root causes. 

[fLow]

I thought it might have been that thread. I don't remember it being asserted that a white member of the population can't be an anti-racist though.

An interesting approach to seeing how classes are kept in check is through radical criminologies.
Elements inside the sub-ordinate classes are always pointed at to explain what is wrong with society - and that their territories are breeding grounds for the crime problem.
The media re-enforces this and so a large amount of attention is diverted from the bigger picture of crime which is by far more dangerous and costly (company short-cuts, tax dodging etc.) and keeps people focused on street crime, which is petty in comparison.
The result is that, not only are those in lower classes seen as inferior, they are also more feared and avoided. Expectations bare reflections too, i.e people often do what is expected of them.

Though even in this field, racism emerges. Blacks are more feared, even by underclass counter-parts.
Both race and class are real issues.

[JC]

I just cant stand all the absolutes and speech from authority when there are so many variables in these situations. "Whites" should "check their privilege at the door." How about instead of assuming this is how white people will act we allow situations and alliances develop however they best can and we allow those who are involved in combating racism do it how they see fit be they black, white or whatever. It is very important to remember the indoctrination that whites receive and is one of the greatest parts to white privilege. I have made this point before but black people I know have no idea what is said behind their backs when only white faces are around. Even though racism is seen by most white corporations as something they don't want to be associated with, it is still socially acceptable to tell racist jokes as long as you look over your shoulder to do so. So in addition to a strong movement of blacks, asians, latinos is necessary so too are white people with the balls to be anti racist in the face of their peers even when they could be ostracized and seen as the enemy. Because, and I am speaking from experience, whites get embarrassed and upset when they realize a "race traitor or nigger lover" are in their midst. They get so embarrassed they resort to those terms, both of which I have been called.
Posted on: February 03, 2008, 10:56:56 amI should add that this does not mean that anyone owes me anything. It just means that the people who know me can trust that I am not two faced.

[havoc1995]

I just cant stand all the absolutes and speech from authority when there are so many variables in these situations.  "Whites" should "check their privilege at the door. " How about instead of assuming this is how white people will act we allow situations and alliances develop however they best can and we allow those who are involved in combating racism do it how they see fit be they black, white or whatever.  It is very important to remember the indoctrination that whites receive and is one of the greatest parts to white privilege.  I have made this point before but black people I know have no idea what is said behind their backs when only white faces are around.  Even though racism is seen by most white corporations as something they don't want to be associated with, it is still socially acceptable to tell racist jokes as long as you look over your shoulder to do so.  So in addition to a strong movement of blacks, asians, latinos is necessary so too are white people with the balls to be anti racist in the face of their peers even when they could be ostracized and seen as the enemy.  Because, and I am speaking from experience, whites get embarrassed and upset when they realize a "race traitor or nigger lover" are in their midst.  They get so embarrassed they resort to those terms, both of which I have been called. 

I generally agree with you, if I'm understanding what you're sayin correctly.

I think it's vital that we be honest with ourselves and each other: whites and to a lesser extent (in the U. S. ) other races are injected with a certain amount of racism.  If we can't admit that, it makes moving forward more difficult. 

I think, however, that there's a fine line between callin people to be honest and assuming racism.  I think there's a good deal of people who go overboard in assuming that all people of the other race are racist and therefore untrustworthy.

[ineed<3]

have you come across a fellah named san pat? he despises white people.

[piercehawkeye45]

Define racism havok. I'm almost certain that is the problem.
Posted on: February 03, 2008, 12:20:42 pmRe-reading that article again I think you misunderstand what was trying to be pointed out in that article havok.

From that thread:

so its impossible for a white person to COMBAT racism now.

Thats not the point of the article.  The article was basically saying that Whites who want to be involved with anti-racism need to not act like their the "boss hogs" at the meetings they go to.  They also need to check their White priviledge at the door, and start looking for ways to dissassociate themselves from their own Whiteness which also equates to their own priviledge that activists of color don't get the benefit of (i.e. being called a hero and a great white for speaking out against racism where as a person of color will get harassed, followed, threatened, imprisoned, and maybe even murdered for this same thing).  Its not saying that White people can't be against racism in thought, but that by their very being alone (myself included) gain many things from a system of racism.

The article did not imply that anyone with white skin can be anti-racist, it implied that anyone who embraces white privilege cannot be anti-racist, and by calling yourself "white", you therefore embrace white privilege and cannot be an anti-racist. White in this article is not necessarily a skin color but a culture of dominance, white culture.

[havoc1995]

Define racism havok.  I'm almost certain that is the problem.

Don't take me the wrong way. . .  racism is a HUGE problem that HAS to be addressed.  But it's short-sighted to only look at racism.  The larger issue is the whole class system that we live in.  Racism is a means to an end (subjecting the people).  If we see that, I think it will help us to overcome it and unite to fight the greater problem.  You see what I'm sayin?

I'm not gonna define racism, we know good and well what is meant.

[piercehawkeye45]

When did I even hint that we should only look at racism?

The larger issue is capitalism.

No, define racism, that is the problem 95% of the time when it comes to arguments over things like these.

Also, don't look at us like idiots, we have a good idea of what the big picture is and if you are not going to do anything except tell us we don't understand the big picture, you will not be taken seriously.

[fLow]

I'm not gonna define racism, we know good and well what is meant.

No, we don't, that's part of the problem. We walk around assuming we know what this and this term means, but it often turns out to be a simplified definition of the word.
Many think that racial prejudice is racism. Here in the UK, police senior officers are made to go through training programes to teach them what racism actually means.
This wouldn't be necessary if it were a simple term that we are all aware of. A central feature of racism is that it has a relationship with power.
It was funny watching an Indian female educator teaching this to white police officers on a board.

The reason the police had to go through this programme was to prevent them from arresting black youths on racism charges. When the new law was introduced, blacks found themselves on the negative end once again! These kids were being arrested and charged for calling officers names like 'honky'.

The real problem was evaded, because of the definition.
Posted on: February 03, 2008, 12:47:23 pmIf racism and any law against it was taken seriously, there would be alot of judges, police, politicians in jail. 

[havoc1995]

When did I even hint that we should only look at racism?

The larger issue is capitalism.

No, define racism, that is the problem 95% of the time when it comes to arguments over things like these.

Also, don't look at us like idiots, we have a good idea of what the big picture is and if you are not going to do anything except tell us we don't understand the big picture, you will not be taken seriously.

I went out of my way to state that I wasn't tryin to be inflamatory with my words. . .

Anyways, in the article he says things like this:

They must be committed to either picking up arms for other people (and only firing when the people tell them so), dying for other people, or just getting out of the way.  In short, they must be willing to do what the people most affected and marginalized by a situation tell them to do.

That's where I believe there's a flaw in his logic.  He believes that these poor "whites" aren't affected by racism. . .  when the reverse is true.  I stated this earlier.  Poor whites are held down by their own racism, which was injected into their culture in the slave days by the slave masters. . .  who also happened to be the masters of their own white indentured servant ancestors.  This is what I believe IT means when he says:

In fact, I have more in common with most working and middle-class white people than I do with most rich black and Latino people.  As much as racism bleeds America, we need to understand that classism is the real issue.  Many of us are in the same boat and it's sinking, while these bougie Mother-Fuckers ride on a luxury liner, and as long as we keep fighting over kicking people out of the little boat we're all in, we're gonna miss an opportunity to gain a better standard of living as a whole. 

Posted on: February 03, 2008, 12:53:41 pmI'm not so much disagreeing with anything that people in this thread have said.  I have an issue with the original thread that I referred to.  I'm tryin to say that everyone needs to realize that the poor/middle class whites who have had the idea of racial prejudice forced upon them are themselves a victim and they're bein subjugated through that.  The only way to truly overcome racism and classism is to recognize this from the start to eradicate racism, which keeps us from overcoming classism.

[piercehawkeye45]

I went out of my way to state that I wasn't tryin to be inflamatory with my words. . .

That doesn't matter, if you say something controversial people will attack it no matter what you say.

If I say, "I'm not trying to be racist because I'm not, but black people need to stop dressing like slobs", that will be taken as racist and is racist no matter what my intentions are. I come to this place to learn, discuss, and open my perspective, not to fit in and I treat others the same way. If I disagree with something you say or think you are coming off in a matter I disagree with, I wills say something even if you don't want to be taken that way.

That's where I believe there's a flaw in his logic.  He believes that these poor "whites" aren't affected by racism. . .  when the reverse is true.  I stated this earlier.  Poor whites are held down by their own racism, which was injected into their culture in the slave days by the slave masters. . .  who also happened to be the masters of their own white indentured servant ancestors.  This is what I believe IT means when he says:

Poor whites are held down by classism, not racism. If you want to get into white privilege, you could make an argument that they are not apart of the white culture, but that still varies.

I don't see how poor whites are hurt by racism though, explain further. They may not be helped by it, but hurt?

For the Tech quote, I take it how the upper class feels supreme to others no matter their skin color. Both classism and racism are big issues in the United States and both need to be addressed.


And a final thought, you took an article that was written by someone who does not post on this forum, take one quote from it, and call us ignorant. That article pointed out many problems and to say we embrace every single view in that article, whether it is true or not, is very naive. On top of that, I do not think you read OUR responses very well because you have not commented on the definition of white on that article and still thinks a man wrote it event though it was pointed out that it was actually written by a woman on that thread.

[JC]

I think that racism is more immediate for the people who suffer from both racism and classism. So I think the eradication of racism takes a front seat for those people. Its not to say one is less important than the other and I am not sure anyone is saying that. I just think that no matter what a poor black man is going to have less opportunities than a poor white man. I have excellent teachers on this board to thank for helping me see that. As a lower middle class white male I see that I have more opportunities than my black, hispanic or female (insert race) counterparts. So which issue takes a front seat is dependent on experience and which problem affects you most. I think to eradicate classism both issues need to be tackled at the same time as one issue (I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) but its what I see.

Havoc, please dont take these contrary posts the wrong way. We are all in this together and as white people  to acknowledge the things we have is a huge step, now the question is what to do about it.
Posted on: February 03, 2008, 01:16:25 pm

I don't see how poor whites are hurt by racism though, explain further. They may not be helped by it, but hurt?

I think there are a few answers to this, one is that we are distracted by racism from attacking the issue of ending poverty and classism. Here is the compassionate, romantic and love aspect, if you are a racist you are denying yourself experiencing some really great people and a culture rich in all aspects. So if you were raised to be a racist you are a victim by this standard, you just have to have the drive to break the mold.

[Alloy]

I don't know my view is that racism should be focused on first because it’s going to be harder to take down the class system if we hispanics/blacks/whites/asian/etc. are fighting amongst ourselves. This makes it easier for the higher ups to keep there place if there not fighting against a unified force.

[havoc1995]

That doesn't matter, if you say something controversial people will attack it no matter what you say.

If I say, "I'm not trying to be racist because I'm not, but black people need to stop dressing like slobs", that will be taken as racist and is racist no matter what my intentions are.  I come to this place to learn, discuss, and open my perspective, not to fit in and I treat others the same way.  If I disagree with something you say or think you are coming off in a matter I disagree with, I wills say something even if you don't want to be taken that way.

Poor whites are held down by classism, not racism.  If you want to get into white privilege, you could make an argument that they are not apart of the white culture, but that still varies. 

I don't see how poor whites are hurt by racism though, explain further.  They may not be helped by it, but hurt?

For the Tech quote, I take it how the upper class feels supreme to others no matter their skin color.  Both classism and racism are big issues in the United States and both need to be addressed.


And a final thought, you took an article that was written by someone who does not post on this forum, take one quote from it, and call us ignorant.  That article pointed out many problems and to say we embrace every single view in that article, whether it is true or not, is very naive.  On top of that, I do not think you read OUR responses very well because you have not commented on the definition of white on that article and still thinks a man wrote it event though it was pointed out that it was actually written by a woman on that thread.

First off, I can handle criticism of anything I say that one may view as "controversial. " I don't mind that in the least, I'm plenty capable of defending my position.  If I wanted to speak to a bunch of mindless drones, I wouldn't come on here.

Secondly. . .  when I noted that there was some ignorant stuff bein spewed on here, I didn't mean the word "ignorant" to be inflamatory.  That word simply means that people are lookin at somethin without certain knowledge, either willingly or otherwise.  That statement wasn't directed at every individual here.  I didn't say "every person on here is an ignorant bastard. "

Thirdly. . .  you still aren't seein the connection I'm makin.  If middle class/poor people of ALL races united, the powers that be would be in trouble.  They know this good and well, and that's why they poisoned our culture with racial ideas.  When the African slaves were first brought over to the Americas, white servants and African slaves WERE fairly united and there are plenty of examples in history where they rebelled against the slave masters, ran away together, etc.  If you're interested in more information on that, read A People's History.  Howard Zahn develops that idea pretty well and cites actual historical documents from that time period.

. . . so I'm sayin that's how poor whites are held down by their own racism (which was forced on them).  They fail to see that they could have something better by uniting because they're ignorantly happy with the scraps they get from the table.